The problem with 2. f4 is that it allows 2..d5! That's why white (if he knows what he is doing) plays 2. Nc3 and only then plays f4.
Is 1.e4 c5 2.f4 that bad?
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2. Nc3 is better way, however is met by the strong ..a6 so it's refuted. But not many know a6, so you should play it! I won against a 1900 fide when I was 1100 with the grand prix ;)
What's the big advantage of a6 as response to 2. Nc3? Not saying it's not true or anything, just curious.
skotheim2 wrote:
2. Nc3 is better way, however is met by the strong ..a6 so it's refuted.
shhh..don't tell everybody !!!
I like to play the mafia defense 2...e5 :) it transponses over to King's gambit similar formation.
the point is that f4 is bad and that nf3 or ne2 is the best moves followed up with d4, which transposes to an open scicillian which black is more familiar with than the grand prix player.
Blackfoxx wrote:
What's the big advantage of a6 as response to 2. Nc3? Not saying it's not true or anything, just curious.
http://www.chess.com/blog/X_PLAYER_J_X/understanding-the-grand-prix-attack
1. e4 c5 2. f4? d5 =
3. exd5 is probably best and now black can either play 3...Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qd8 where despite his development advantage, white will not be better, and his f4 move makes no sense, or 3...Nf6 with the idea of gambiting a pawn after 4. c4 e6 where white is not considered to have much of an advantage, as black can use the d4 square and control of the d-file with great development for a pawn.
3. e5?! Nc6 4. Nf3 Bg4 (4...Bf5 may also be equal) is equal because black will arrive at a French position where he has gotten his bishop outside the pawn chain (and is ready to trade it for the f3-knight if white plays h3) without any concessions- he didn't even have to waste a tempo like he would in a Caro Advance. White also hasn't even played d4. This is even more of a success out of the opening than the first line.
3. Nc3?! and black can do all sorts of things but even simply 3...dxe4 4. Nxe4 e6 is probably equal at least. Once again, the center is open enough that the f4 move doesn't look logical, and also black has no development problems.
Those are the only third moves that make much sense to me. 3. Bb5+ is also a lemon which black easily equalizes against.
2. f4? is just a bad move and there's no reason for allowing an immediate d5. None of the positions I mentioned are anything like the typical attacking positions that Grand Prix players want and none of them achieve anything more than equality (and that's being generous for some of these lines). If you want to play a Grand Prix, 2. Nc3 is the only way to go about it. Still, there are numerous lines (albeit not as simple as these) which equalize against the Grand Prix also so honestly I'd recommend you find a better opening.
dpnorman wrote:
1. e4 c5 2. f4? d5 =
3. exd5 is probably best and now black can either play 3...Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qd8 where despite his development advantage, white will not be better, and his f4 move makes no sense, or 3...Nf6 with the idea of gambiting a pawn after 4. c4 e6 where white is not considered to have much of an advantage, as black can use the d4 square and control of the d-file with great development for a pawn.
3. e5?! Nc6 4. Nf3 Bg4 (4...Bf5 may also be equal) is equal because black will arrive at a French position where he has gotten his bishop outside the pawn chain (and is ready to trade it for the f3-knight if white plays h3) without any concessions- he didn't even have to waste a tempo like he would in a Caro Advance. White also hasn't even played e4. This is even more of a success out of the opening than the first line.
3. Nc3?! and black can do all sorts of things but even simply 3...dxe4 4. Nxe4 e6 is probably equal at least. Once again, the center is open enough that the f4 move doesn't look logical, and also black has no development problems.
Those are the only third moves that make much sense to me. 3. Bb5+ is also a lemon which black easily equalizes against.
2. f4? is just a bad move and there's no reason for allowing an immediate d5. None of the positions I mentioned are anything like the typical attacking positions that Grand Prix players want and none of them achieve anything more than equality (and that's being generous for some of these lines). If you want to play a Grand Prix, 2. Nc3 is the only way to go about it. Still, there are numerous lines (albeit not as simple as these) which equalize against the Grand Prix also so honestly I'd recommend you find a better opening.
d5 does equalize. However, some people play it all the time.
You have forgot the move 3.Nf3. Which is playable
If you read my article/blog you would know 2...d5 it playable.
Understanding the (GPA) by clicking HERE.
You should also check out the 3.Nf3 line. Its actually got a wicked queen sac-ing line in it. It is known as the Bryntse Gambit.
I talked with a player by the name BigGStikman about it on my forum. Its a very interesting line. He talked about some of its idea's on my forum. which is below link.
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/grand-prix-attack13
He is a very nice person indeed. He seems like a very nice person to me. However, I have never met him in person. His blogs are very nice as well. I would encourage anyone to read those as well. Especially if they wish to play 2.f4. I personally prefer 2.Nc3. Its a matter of taste though. Everyone plays what they like the best nothing wrong with that.
The below link will link you to BigGStikman article. He has a total of 3 articles about it as well. Very wonderful articles gives background information on the player. Who invented the line.
http://www.chess.com/blog/BigGStikman/bryntse-gambit
An the below link is his article on the (GPA) with 2.f4 lines
http://www.chess.com/blog/BigGStikman/grand-prix-attack
If a person can not figure out how to understand/play the Grand Prix Attack.
Or
Figure out how to find alternative lines to play against different moves in the (GPA).
Than they should just quit chess. So much power and information right there at there finger tips. Over 6 different articles of information + alot of free online youtube video's of the (GPA).
What esle does a person need to know? If they can't get it by now after this post. They will never get it. An they might as well just quit playing chess. Maybe they should try there luck at checkers or poker.
"If you read my article/blog you would know 2...d5 it playable".
@X PLAYER JX I think you misunderstood my post...or something. I know d5 is playable- I just made a lengthy post explaining why it is the refutation to 2. f4.
If white wants to play the GPA, he doesn't have a choice of move orders. He needs to play 2. Nc3 if he wants to achieve anything at all.
BigGStikman's idea is interesting, but my engine ChessPro on this iPad (which I really don't recommend by the way because it's a piece of crap, although like any engine it is fairly strong) was able to refute his queen sac after 1. e4 c5 2. f4? d5 3. Nf3? exd4 4. Ng5 Nf6 5. Bc4 Bg4 6. Bxf7+?!? Kd7 7. Qxg4 Nxg4 8. Be6+ Kc6 9. Bxg4 Qe8 10. Bf5 (or 10. Nc3 e5) e5! 11. Bxe4+ Kc7 12. fxe5 Nc6! 13. 0-0 Nxe5 where everything is defended and white is just down material. It might be fun in OTB situations where the players are U1500, or blitz games, but it's clearly unsound.
The thing that always got me about 2.f4, is that it allows 2..d5 as others have said, but doesn't really get anything in return.
I personally play 2..g6 and the game pretty much always returns to mainlines, and I do not believe any of white's independent options they wouldnt have had after 2.Nc3 are any good.
Is there a reason people play it? or is it just ignorance of opening theory?
May 25, 2015
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#13
If you play that ?....you're gonna get 2...d5 from me. Know what to do with that.
@Godlike I don't understand why you play 2...g6 even though you acknowledge that the 2. f4 move order is faulty. You would prefer not to take advantage of white's move order?
dpnorman wrote:
@Godlike I don't understand why you play 2...g6 even though you acknowledge that the 2. f4 move order is faulty. You would prefer not to take advantage of white's move order?
Because I know the mainlines of the GP and closed sicilian well, and am confident in equalising. While 2..d5 equalises quicker, I have much less experience in it. Keeps things simple.
there is no reason to play f4 when Nc3 prevents d5 and reaches the same positions without allowing certain options from black.
Nevertheless, I saw a new idea (albeit not a great one) in the f4 line yesterday that interested me:
skotheim2 wrote:
the point is that f4 is bad and that nf3 or ne2 is the best moves followed up with d4, which transposes to an open scicillian which black is more familiar with than the grand prix player.
I always respond with e6 to Nc3 because f4 is bad in that case as well. After Nf3 a6 d4 cxd4 Nxd4 d6 I am in familiar Schevy territory.
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:
Blackfoxx wrote:
What's the big advantage of a6 as response to 2. Nc3? Not saying it's not true or anything, just curious.
http://www.chess.com/blog/X_PLAYER_J_X/understanding-the-grand-prix-attack
Thanks but that link ain't relevant to me.
Blackfoxx wrote:
skotheim2 wrote:
the point is that f4 is bad and that nf3 or ne2 is the best moves followed up with d4, which transposes to an open scicillian which black is more familiar with than the grand prix player.
I always respond with e6 to Nc3 because f4 is bad in that case as well. After Nf3 a6 d4 cxd4 Nxd4 d6 I am in familiar Schevy territory.
e6 doesnt work because
of
It aims for a very offensive game, at least in the king side, but it has often been criticised as opening white's pawns way too early and under protecting the area (as well as breaking the best pawn configuration for white's 0-0, effectively stopping white from playing 0-0 later).