Is the Caro Kann broken?

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fayizchess87
In recent games between super engines, black held a draw once with the Caro and white won every other game. So does this mean that the Caro Kann is busted or is it still playable?
SoupTime4

The next time i play someone rated 3600, I will keep this in mind.

FizzyBand

The Caro-Kan is completely playable. End of Conversation 

ThrillerFan
fayizchess87 wrote:
In recent games between super engines, black held a draw once with the Caro and white won every other game. So does this mean that the Caro Kann is busted or is it still playable?

 

Engines do not know how to play chess.

Engines can calculate forcing lines better than us humans by light years, but they have no concept of strategy, opening theory (you have to install a human programmed power book for it to understand openings) or endgame theory.  You have to install 5, 6, and 7 piece table bases or else it will tell you R+N vs R (no pawns) is +3 whereas, barring an immediate fork or skewer or the king stuck to the edge of the board, it is 0.00!

 

Deep blue was juiced up by humans.

 

Statistical results also do not determine soundness.  Refutation maybe if 100 percent via a forcing line, but 70 percent for White may be totally sound for Black, but possibly White's ideas are simpler for a human to carry out.  Does not mean it is unsound!

ChessKiebitz

No worries, I am not an expert, still a beginner, but the Caro-Kann is playable, like nearly every other opening or Opening system. Keep or start playing! :-)

ThrillerFan
ChessKiebitz wrote:

No worries, I am not an expert, still a beginner, but the Caro-Kann is playable, like nearly every other opening or Opening system. Keep or start playing! :-)

Keep or start playing?

I'll pass and stick with the French.

Facing the Caro-Kann is like having an extremely attractive woman in a hotel room with you!  Full of fantasies (3.f3!!) and lots of success! (1-0)

ThrillerFan
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

Asparagusic_acids
ThrillerFan wrote:
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

E4 e6????? F3 1-0

CathalKing
ThrillerFan a écrit :
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

never play f3

PandasAwesome
ThrillerFan wrote:
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 dxe4 4. fxe4 c5! (opens up tactical lines for the queen and bishop).

PandasAwesome

I may not be the best at it, but it's just my theory.

PandasAwesome

Caro-Kann is the best way to play for a draw. If you want to go for a win, start playing crazy lines like:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. c4 e5! 

ThrillerFan
PandasAwesome wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 dxe4 4. fxe4 c5! (opens up tactical lines for the queen and bishop).

 

Your line is weak.  After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 dxe4 4.fxe4 c5? (NOT !) 5.d5 is a clear advantage for White.  Black has wasted time moving the same pawn twice and has don't nothing to attack White or pose any threats.

Instead, after 4...e5, White cannot take or advance the pawn due to 5...Qh4+, basically winning for Black, but to White's fortune, 5.Nf3 is very strong, and Black is better off not surrendering the center and playing 3...Qb6, 3...e6, or 3...g6.

3...dxe4 is not by any means refuted, but it is far riskier, and Black is clearly worse if not followed by 4...e5.

PandasAwesome
ThrillerFan wrote:
PandasAwesome wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 dxe4 4. fxe4 c5! (opens up tactical lines for the queen and bishop).

 

Your line is weak.  After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 dxe4 4.fxe4 c5? (NOT !) 5.d5 is a clear advantage for White.  Black has wasted time moving the same pawn twice and has don't nothing to attack White or pose any threats.

Instead, after 4...e5, White cannot take or advance the pawn due to 5...Qh4+, basically winning for Black, but to White's fortune, 5.Nf3 is very strong, and Black is better off not surrendering the center and playing 3...Qb6, 3...e6, or 3...g6.

3...dxe4 is not by any means refuted, but it is far riskier, and Black is clearly worse if not followed by 4...e5.

What if after 3.f3(your amazing move 🙄) I play 3... e6! 

PandasAwesome

f3 is way too risky anyway. You're opening up way too many lines. Not going to work.

ThrillerFan
PandasAwesome wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
PandasAwesome wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
stopvacuuming wrote:

false, dont ever compare the trash french to the godly caro kann

 

I just did!  Whatcha gonna do about it?

1.e4 c6?! 2.d4 d5 3.f3! 1-0

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.e5 with play for both sides

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5?! =

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 dxe4 4. fxe4 c5! (opens up tactical lines for the queen and bishop).

 

Your line is weak.  After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 dxe4 4.fxe4 c5? (NOT !) 5.d5 is a clear advantage for White.  Black has wasted time moving the same pawn twice and has don't nothing to attack White or pose any threats.

Instead, after 4...e5, White cannot take or advance the pawn due to 5...Qh4+, basically winning for Black, but to White's fortune, 5.Nf3 is very strong, and Black is better off not surrendering the center and playing 3...Qb6, 3...e6, or 3...g6.

3...dxe4 is not by any means refuted, but it is far riskier, and Black is clearly worse if not followed by 4...e5.

What if after 3.f3(your amazing move 🙄) I play 3... e6! 

 

Well, given that I already mentioned that 3...Qb6, 3...e6, and 3...g6 are all better than 3...dxe4, obviously it's not "weak", but it doesn't crush White.

White is fine after 4.Nc3.  If 4...Bb4 (the main response), White has the gambit line 5.a3 and the positional like 5.Bf4, and if 4...Nf6, then 5.e5 Nfd7 6.f4 c5 is a direct transposition to the Steinitz French.

ThrillerFan
PandasAwesome wrote:

f3 is way too risky anyway. You're opening up way too many lines. Not going to work.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

 

Try telling GM Alexey Bezgodov that!

PandasAwesome
ThrillerFan wrote:
PandasAwesome wrote:

f3 is way too risky anyway. You're opening up way too many lines. Not going to work.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

 

Try telling GM Alexey Bezgodov that!

Whatever. Make your own theories about it. Not gonna criticize, but just saying Caro-Kann is NOT broken, in fact it's probably better than French.

tlay80
ThrillerFan wrote:

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 with play for both sides

[...]

1.e4 e6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! =

What line makes you mark 3 Nd2 as worse than 3 Nc3?  Last I heard (but I'm not up on these things), theory seemed unable to find any good reason for them not to converge.

ThrillerFan

3.Nd2 c5! Is totally equal.

3.Nc3, while 3...dxe4, 3...Nf6, and 3...Bb4 are all respectable, they all lead to a small edge for White.

There is no edge for White after 3...c5 against the Tarrasch.  White is not worse, but zero advantage!