Is the Main line of the Fried Liver wrong?

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indian1960

On 9. 0-0....it never hurts to castle....safety first !....Smile.

sloughterchess
watcha wrote:

I think that 5. ... Nxd5 by black is wrong (much better is 5. ... Na5). So white should never have the chance to play this variation. Even if 5. ... Nxd5 is played the opening book I trust recommends 6. d4 as a much better move for white than Nxf7. So the main line indicated in the opening comment is wrong from both black's and white's perspective. This line should simply never occur.

NM Dan Heisman after exhaustive analysis confirmed by GM Larry Kaufman relying on Komodo analyzed that position as equal. However, as IM Phren has pointed out these pros and I missed---6.d4 Nxd4! 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.f3! What Heisman and Kaufman should have considered was to leave the piece en prise and just take away the resource Qxg2.

sloughterchess
1random wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:

For centuries it has been believed that the main line of the Fried Liver, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 was correct.

Jon Edwards in Chess Life suggested that 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd6 11.Ne4+ favors White; I agree. At a fast time limit Houdini tried 10...Qf6, but after 11.Qe2 White gets a big plus.

With 10...Kd7 11.a3 Nxc3 12.axb4 Nd5 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Ra5! & White is better.

 

The key improvement for Black which was played in no games I have found in my Big data base from 2013 is---6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nce7! 9.d4 c6 10.Bg5 Qe8! The Pro's improvement over the book line, 10...h6.

I cannot find any advantage for White after 10...Qe8.

10.dxe5

Yeah, 10.dxe5 cooks Qe8; I kept trying to make Bxe7 work to hit d5 but 10.dxe5 is a killer. If 10...Qf7 11.Qe3 with the deadly threat O-O-O

pfren
sloughterchess wrote:
In Post 6 IM Phren after "exhaustive analysis" claims that this line is equal. Does White have realistic attacking resources that cannot be met? No analysis is provided by IM Phren after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 except to say that White has no advantage after either 12.Ne4 or 12.dxe5.

I usually offer my knowledge for free, but for you, I can make an exception: The analysis of those lines will cost you a measly $ 150.

Mostly not my work, but I have blunderchecked them for many hours, and they are fine, as far as I am concerned.

If interested, please PM me. Alternatively, you can analyse yourself with no charge, but the result will be ridiculous- as usual...

sloughterchess
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:
In Post 6 IM Phren after "exhaustive analysis" claims that this line is equal. Does White have realistic attacking resources that cannot be met? No analysis is provided by IM Phren after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 except to say that White has no advantage after either 12.Ne4 or 12.dxe5.

I usually offer my knowledge for free, but for you, I can make an exception: The analysis of those lines will cost you a measly $ 150.

Mostly not my work, but I have blunderchecked them for many hours, and they are fine, as far as I am concerned.

If interested, please PM me. Alternatively, you can analyse yourself with no charge, but the result will be ridiculous- as usual...

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

irWietje

he's being sarcastic

DefinitelyNotGM
sloughterchess wrote:
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:
In Post 6 IM Phren after "exhaustive analysis" claims that this line is equal. Does White have realistic attacking resources that cannot be met? No analysis is provided by IM Phren after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 except to say that White has no advantage after either 12.Ne4 or 12.dxe5.

I usually offer my knowledge for free, but for you, I can make an exception: The analysis of those lines will cost you a measly $ 150.

Mostly not my work, but I have blunderchecked them for many hours, and they are fine, as far as I am concerned.

If interested, please PM me. Alternatively, you can analyse yourself with no charge, but the result will be ridiculous- as usual...

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

The 'important messages' that you see sometimes when you log in are trying to tell you to get premium membership... that's soliciting business, isn't it? And chess.com is a business

najdorf96

(Obviously, the usually verbose, mild-mannered IM-heh-was being sarcastic. OF COURSE you know that, but you continue to "play along". I'm assuming you're thick-skinned, and anything i say even with the best of intentions, will probably not mean much...but i'm compelled to ask why champion an obscure variation-for both sides-to such an degree?)

pfren
sloughterchess wrote:

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

I don't really care... and I certainly won't educate total illiterates like you for free. Factly, i will teach illiterals for free, but definitely not arrogant/ignorant ones, like you.

And... oh, yes, chess.com is not the definition of a free site. Most premium services cost money.

And NO, I was not sarcastic. I was dead serious.

sloughterchess
najdorf96 wrote:

(Obviously, the usually verbose, mild-mannered IM-heh-was being sarcastic. OF COURSE you know that, but you continue to "play along". I'm assuming you're thick-skinned, and anything i say even with the best of intentions, will probably not mean much...but i'm compelled to ask why champion an obscure variation-for both sides-to such an degree?)

Chess players are an odd lot. Some think that obscure variations are worth studying for a lifetime. NM Dan Heisman spent years studying the Traxler and the Fried Liver; he published a 260 page CD on the Traxler alone which is even more obscure than the Fried Liver.

sloughterchess
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

I don't really care... and I certainly won't educate total illiterates like you for free. Factly, i will teach illiterals for free, but definitely not arrogant/ignorant ones, like you.

And... oh, yes, chess.com is not the definition of a free site. Most premium services cost money.

And NO, I was not sarcastic. I was dead serious.

I have only had contact with two obnoxious professionals Phren, you and Grandmaster Leonid Shamkovich. I have had extensive courteous contact from a variety of Grandmasters, International Masters, International Correspondence Masters and countless rank and file members of the chess community---the only professional who has been rude and arrogant, Phren is you.

sloughterchess
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

I don't really care... and I certainly won't educate total illiterates like you for free. Factly, i will teach illiterals for free, but definitely not arrogant/ignorant ones, like you.

And... oh, yes, chess.com is not the definition of a free site. Most premium services cost money.

And NO, I was not sarcastic. I was dead serious.

You refer to me as "illiterate"; I am on the front cover of Infinite Energy Magazine for three articles I have written---One called, "Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics, a second called, "The Eclipse Data of 1919: The Greatest Hoax in 20th Century Science" and "Hormesis and the Rebirth of Nuclear Power".

I was also on George Noory's Program Coast to Coast for three hours promoting my new model.

I have published a full length article for the Mensa Bulletin, the high IQ society.

And your "literate" accomplishments are???

najdorf96

Agreed. I must say, i really admire that. Although, i like diving into certain lines for more practical application rather than for it's theoretical merits.

It's cool, though, which is why i like following this kind of thread. I realize there are many different paths to one's self-improvement in Chess; and not the least of all, is the Philosophical. Indeed, i'm appreciative, if not being the more better off for it, in having this conversation with you. Keep the faith.

8)

pfren
sloughterchess wrote:
And your "literate" accomplishments are???

Certainly way most important that yours.

Won't bother mentioning them... Google it, sir.

ruben72d
sloughterchess wrote:
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

I don't really care... and I certainly won't educate total illiterates like you for free. Factly, i will teach illiterals for free, but definitely not arrogant/ignorant ones, like you.

And... oh, yes, chess.com is not the definition of a free site. Most premium services cost money.

And NO, I was not sarcastic. I was dead serious.

You refer to me as "illiterate"; I am on the front cover of Infinite Energy Magazine for three articles I have written---One called, "Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics, a second called, "The Eclipse Data of 1919: The Greatest Hoax in 20th Century Science" and "Hormesis and the Rebirth of Nuclear Power".

I was also on George Noory's Program Coast to Coast for three hours promoting my new model.

I have published a full length article for the Mensa Bulletin, the high IQ society.

And your "literate" accomplishments are???

The emphasis of pfrens argument wasn't whether you were illiterate or not. You might be a well respected geographer, could be. The point is however that you are an arrogant somebody who thinks being well respected on one subject makes him better on all. The fact that you mention mensa only strengthens this idea. Pfren is just a better chess player then you and when he's trying to help you, accept the advice from an IM and leave the arrogance behind...

chesshole
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:
Metaknight251 wrote:

I'm pretty sure the fried liver as a whole is not as good as the lolli (6. d4)

Dan Heisman in Chess Life pretty much refuted the Lolli as a winning attempt. Houdini 3 Pro continues 6...Nxd4 7.c3 b5! 8.Bd3 h6 9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4! 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O with about an equal position.

Please don't talk about things you have no clue about.

6...Nxd4 is indeed the only really good move, when after 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.f3, white will win a piece for two pawns and a compact Black center. Initially engines say about equal, but if you do some serious analysis (can you? I guess not...) it becomes clear that white has the advantage.

Your Fried Liver line is silly, too. After 8...Ncb4! 9.0-0 c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Black's best is 11...Ke7 (letting the LSB to develop freely) and this position has been exhaustively analysed- white has no advantage after either 12.Ne4, or 12.de5.

You could use your Houdini to analyse these positions, but I'm afraid this task is simply too heavy for your skills.

calm down jerk

sloughterchess
ruben72d wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

I don't really care... and I certainly won't educate total illiterates like you for free. Factly, i will teach illiterals for free, but definitely not arrogant/ignorant ones, like you.

And... oh, yes, chess.com is not the definition of a free site. Most premium services cost money.

And NO, I was not sarcastic. I was dead serious.

You refer to me as "illiterate"; I am on the front cover of Infinite Energy Magazine for three articles I have written---One called, "Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics, a second called, "The Eclipse Data of 1919: The Greatest Hoax in 20th Century Science" and "Hormesis and the Rebirth of Nuclear Power".

I was also on George Noory's Program Coast to Coast for three hours promoting my new model.

I have published a full length article for the Mensa Bulletin, the high IQ society.

And your "literate" accomplishments are???

The emphasis of pfrens argument wasn't whether you were illiterate or not. You might be a well respected geographer, could be. The point is however that you are an arrogant somebody who thinks being well respected on one subject makes him better on all. The fact that you mention mensa only strengthens this idea. Pfren is just a better chess player then you and when he's trying to help you, accept the advice from an IM and leave the arrogance behind...

I have received "help" from players vastly stronger than Pfren---many have never charged for their advice and they treated me as a peer---never with the rude, arrogant attitude he Pfren has exhibited.

ruben72d

the only reason pfren was annoyed was because you used engines to evaluate an opening position while it is known that engines generally do not score well on this aspect of chess. you then continued "analyzing" the same opening even though people already got annoyed with you when you used an engine. Also Pfren helps alot of people on this site when they pose useful questions (or even when they don't) and doesn't charge. If you stop engine using and do some real analysis maybe then you will be taken seriously, you are so smart anyway, shouldn't be that hard. ;)

chesshole
ruben72d wrote:

the only reason pfren was annoyed was because you used engines to evaluate an opening position while it is known that engines generally do not score well on this aspect of chess. you then continued "analyzing" the same opening even though people already got annoyed with you when you used an engine. Also Pfren helps alot of people on this site when they pose useful questions (or even when they don't) and doesn't charge. If you stop engine using and do some real analysis maybe then you will be taken seriously, you are so smart anyway, shouldn't be that hard. ;)

the IM basically calls the guy a moron 3 or 4 times in his first post for no reason lol.  You can try to defend this however you want, doesn't make it right.  IM title isn't a carte blanche to be a jerk.

Ziryab
sloughterchess wrote:
pfren wrote:
sloughterchess wrote:

Is it ethical on a free site to solicit business?

I don't really care... and I certainly won't educate total illiterates like you for free. Factly, i will teach illiterals for free, but definitely not arrogant/ignorant ones, like you.

And... oh, yes, chess.com is not the definition of a free site. Most premium services cost money.

And NO, I was not sarcastic. I was dead serious.

You refer to me as "illiterate"; I am on the front cover of Infinite Energy Magazine for three articles I have written---One called, "Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics, a second called, "The Eclipse Data of 1919: The Greatest Hoax in 20th Century Science" and "Hormesis and the Rebirth of Nuclear Power".

I was also on George Noory's Program Coast to Coast for three hours promoting my new model.

I have published a full length article for the Mensa Bulletin, the high IQ society.

And your "literate" accomplishments are???

All of which raises serious questions concerning the poverty of your analysis of the Fegatello Attack. That is, IM pfren suggested that your method of analysis was flawed, and he described his own. This thread could have developed in a productive direction from there had you let it.