italian game or ruy lopez?

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SamuelAjedrez95
ssctk wrote:

searching a master DB to see what the top ( super GMs ) prefer makes little sense unfortunately. At the top only MLV consistently employs the Najdorf which you've established as the most respected.

 

But anyhow this discussion makes little sense, I'm sure with or without it you are fully capable of pasting lines that often do not make any sense for every opening that exists and also give recommendations on them.

I provided data on master level games. You don't provide data on anything and just cope by saying "Oh but they are not all super GMs so it doesn't count". You are not acknowledging all the other players.

The lines make perfect sense. There are reasons for each of the moves if you take the time to understand them. It's just your belief that people shouldn't bother taking the time to understand them.

SamuelAjedrez95
ssctk wrote:

The difference is the number of games to build pattern knowledge and what is "lost" during that time, whether this is correspondence or with peers on a physical board.

You could play corr and play eg a lot of slow Berlin games and a lot of slow open Ruy games and a lot of slow Breyer games and a lot of slow Zaitsev games and a lot of slow Chingorin games, a lot of slow Marshall games plus a few for the sidelines.

The alternative is to spend that time in technical endgames, visualisation and calculation, tactics, high quality training material eg Dvoretsky. Playing a d3 Ruy or an Italian frees up this time.

The later being the more likely to improve your game than spending this time on the Ruy.

 

A coach I know personally, himself a well regarded author of a couple of opening monographs ( targeting 2200+ audience) had told me that two of his students broke 2000 ( fide, not chess.com ) with zero opening knowledge, they were playing really just developing moves.

Most of his students, esp those above 2000 typically do have a defined repertoire but it's one that allows them to focus on the important part of the game and not on repertoire maintenance nor theoretical lines.

None of them play the Ruy actually, some are FMs, there are a couple of IMs there too, so this time is probably better invested on the Dvoretskys, and well annotated games instead of going after theoretical openings. 

You say that I'm promoting my favourite openings. That's true but they are not just my favourite openings. They are also the chosen weapons of many of the strongest GMs throughout history. These are top quality openings and also very enjoyable.

You just want everyone to play openings like Exchange Ruy Lopez and Exchange French. You promote playing simple and boring chess because that's what you like. If that's your kind of thing then fair enough. The problem is that you try to discourage and intimidate others into playing your style.

Yes endgame play does matter but opening play also matters. The endgame comes from the middlegame and the middlegame comes from the opening. You can't only separate the game into these parts as they are all connected. It's important to learn how to get an advantageous position from the opening and also how to convert it. Not one or the other.

ssctk
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
ssctk wrote:

searching a master DB to see what the top ( super GMs ) prefer makes little sense unfortunately. At the top only MLV consistently employs the Najdorf which you've established as the most respected.

 

But anyhow this discussion makes little sense, I'm sure with or without it you are fully capable of pasting lines that often do not make any sense for every opening that exists and also give recommendations on them.

I provided data on master level games. You don't provide data on anything and just cope by saying "Oh but they are not all super GMs so it doesn't count". You are just disrespecting all the other players by not acknowledging them.

The lines make perfect sense. There are reasons for each of the moves if you take the time to understand them. It's just your belief that people shouldn't bother taking the time to understand them.

 

I don't need to provide you anything just because you don't know how to properly search a DB for super GM games. Also all these posts about what you believe I believe are getting boring.

 

You are free of course to keep posting openings advice on all openings ever played, including pasting the wrong lines, or pasting stockfish analysis run on insufficient depts on positions known to be equal but I'm going to excuse myself and not respond to your posts, as it's entirely pointless.

SamuelAjedrez95
ssctk wrote:

I don't need to provide you anything just because you don't know how to properly search a DB for super GM games. Also all these posts about what you believe I believe are getting boring.

 

You are free of course to keep posting openings advice on all openings ever played, including pasting the wrong lines, or pasting stockfish analysis run on insufficient depts on positions known to be equal but I'm going to excuse myself and not respond to your posts, as it's entirely pointless.

If you want to correct a line I've posted then feel free. I will admit when I'm wrong if you can prove it and explain it.

I don't only look at stockfish analysis. I also look at the results of human players to see which lines are scoring well and why.

You say all of that is irrelevant. That doesn't make sense. If there's a refutation for a move then it matters. If players are winning more with certain opening play then it matters.

ssctk
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
ssctk wrote:

I don't need to provide you anything just because you don't know how to properly search a DB for super GM games. Also all these posts about what you believe I believe are getting boring.

 

You are free of course to keep posting openings advice on all openings ever played, including pasting the wrong lines, or pasting stockfish analysis run on insufficient depts on positions known to be equal but I'm going to excuse myself and not respond to your posts, as it's entirely pointless.

If you want to correct a line I've posted then feel free. I will admit when I'm wrong if you can prove it and explain it.

I don't only look at stockfish analysis. I also look at the results of human players to see which lines are scoring well and why.

You say all of that is irrelevant. That doesn't make sense. If there's a refutation for a move then it matters. If players are winning more with certain opening play then it matters.

 

Above I should had added reading comprehension or lack of thereof among the reasons not to discuss further, sorry but got better things to do with my time.

SamuelAjedrez95

Saying the opening doesn't matter doesn't make any sense.

What you suggest is so ridiculous:

You say make random passive moves in the opening as long as you avoid anything that's really good as that would be too theoretical.

Eventually, you reach an equal endgame and you miraculously outplay your opponent every time from the equal endgame because you're so cracked.

That's all there is to chess apparently.

SamuelAjedrez95
ssctk wrote:

Above I should had added reading comprehension or lack of thereof among the reasons not to discuss further, sorry but got better things to do with my time.

This is really sad.

I talk about the chess and you want to try to insult my intelligence so you feel better about yourself.

Real low dude.

SamuelAjedrez95
Gigachad_Thundercawk wrote:

hate to break it to you, butyou suck at chess and have nothing of value to contribute in this discussion. but since you clearly placed your magnificent rearside on a high horse, you'd rather p*** off a much better player than yourself than actually learn from superior players.

 

grad a douchebag.

Well you suck at chess just as much as me then. I only gave my opinion and you have nothing better to do than lash out and throw insults because you don't like it.

Get over yourself.

x-9222740296

l Like italia opening

gmdavv

@SamuelAjedrez95 like I said in the other post, tactics come first. It does not come from openings. I don’t know why it’s so hard to understand. opening does matter. Saying opening doesn’t matter is wrong. @gigachad_thundercawk
However what I said above also depends on rating level. For example if you are 1200, you don’t need opening preparation. If you are strong at tactics you will basically win all of your games. For example when you are at master level that’s where you need strong opening repertoires and excellent preps. Those masters usually have teams and coaches to help them prep.

DrSpudnik

Spanish is better if you need to play for the win.

Italian is more fun.

SamuelAjedrez95
gmdavv wrote:

@SamuelAjedrez95 like I said in the other post, tactics come first. It does not come from openings. I don’t know why it’s so hard to understand. opening does matter. Saying opening doesn’t matter is wrong.

Tactics are important. Endgames are important. Openings are important. Of course, you can make some progress by only focusing on 1 but all are important. They are all part of the game of chess and improving in all factors will be much more beneficial.

SamuelAjedrez95
alexlehrersh wrote:

you can practise tactics in specific openings.

Thats how you can slap 2 flies with on hand

This is true as well. Also learning about opening traps and mistakes can teach you tactical motifs.

SamuelAjedrez95
alexlehrersh wrote:

you can practise tactics in specific openings.

Thats how you can slap 2 flies with on hand

In English we normally say "it kills two birds with one stone".

Wie sagt man es auf Deutsch? Ich will es lernen.

gmdavv
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

They are all part of the game of chess and improving in all factors will be much more beneficial.

The above sentence is true.

Ethan_Brollier

I feel like a lot of the conversation has drifted far far away from the original question: Italian or Spanish?
I'm going to attempt to summarize the points made.
Italian is less time-consuming at the grandmaster level while still remaining a respectable opening.
Ruy Lopez is more theoretical at the grandmaster level, but also more solid, more intuitive, stronger, more popular, and a better way to improve at chess in the long run, remaining one of the staples of chess at all levels for very, very good reason.

SamuelAjedrez95
alexlehrersh wrote:

2 Fliegen mit einer Klappe schlagen

Danke. Ich werde mich an diesen Satz erinnern.