KID Not a choice in WCC...?!!

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Avatar of Naifmando56

I was looking up the Anand-Carlsen matches and came across this: http://www.alexcolovic.com/2014/11/carlsen-anand-2014-game-1.html

In the game displayed, on the move 2...g6 it is written:

"the KID is not really an option at this level"

Really?!! If it's true, then can someone be kind enough to explain why is the KID not to be played?

Avatar of AyoDub

Many high level players believe that the kid is ''not fully correct''. However, I think the author of the blog is at the extreme end of the position, because I'm sure the KID could be played with some effect at this level. 

That said, there is no reason in my opinion for Carlsen to play something like the KID. It is risky, heavily theoretical, and simply better for white by a  decent margin. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a drawn match means the title is retained by Carlsen. Additionally, he's not well known for playing heavily theoretical openings, I think the gruenfeld is an exception here because it often leads to highly technical endgames, something Carlsen excels at.

Avatar of SilentKnighte5

I posted the stats for the KID in another thread.  Based on that, it's no surprise that it's not completely favored at the highest levels.

Avatar of AngeloPardi

Nakamura plays it and Radjabov beat Carlsen in a KID this year at the Gashimov memorial. 
It was one of Kasparov's mains opening.
The KID is still an option, but it doesn't suit MAgnus style. 

Avatar of toiyabe

The KID is most definitely an option at that level, it just depends on the players involved.  Gelfand, Nakamura, Grischuk, Radjabov, etc, all top tier players and have no problem whipping out the KID.  As AngeloPardi stated, the KID doesn't suit Magnus, and Vishy has never been a KID player.  So its a  slim to none chance it appears in the match...nothing to do with objective merit of the KID. 

Avatar of AyoDub
PrimeWizarD wrote:

The WCC match cannot end in a draw. There are tiebreaker games on the last day. It used to be that way, but no more.

Really? I could've sworn that in the Anand-Gelfand match there was talk about Anand retaining the title if the match is tied. But now I think about it, Anand won by drawing the last game right? so maybe thats what is confusing me.

Avatar of AngeloPardi

Anand won the match on tie-break, by winning the rapid mini-match.

Avatar of Naifmando56

SilentKnight, I'd say we don't depend on stats. KG's stats are 39% white, 40% black, 21% draw. So is KG bad?

Godlike, you are absolutely correct. KID could defititely be played. And yes, Carlsen played Gruenfeld to avoid theory. Still, I don't understand why he will avoid theory by playing the
Moscow against Sicilian while playing the Dragon as black...

Fixing a Hole, It does depend on the players. You will definitely not want to play KID against Petrosian or Najdorf against Fischer. But anyway, the bloke who annoted the game said it was not a choice at that "level". This actually enrages me as I played KID for many years.

Avatar of lolurspammed

Kasparov would probably beat Anand with the KID. The KID is perfectly sound, there is no reason it's not respectable anymore.

Avatar of SilentKnighte5
Saurya25 wrote:

SilentKnight, I'd say we don't depend on stats. KG's stats are 39% white, 40% black, 21% draw. So is KG bad?

What?

To answer your question, when was the last time you saw a KG in a WCC match?  When was the last time someone used it in the last round of an important classical tournament in a must win game?

Avatar of lolurspammed

A must win game is the perfect time to play it..

Avatar of SilentKnighte5
Saurya25 wrote:

But anyway, the bloke who annoted the game said it was not a choice at that "level". This actually enrages me as I played KID for many years.

Are you at "that level"?

Avatar of Naifmando56
SilentKnighte5 wrote:
Saurya25 wrote:

But anyway, the bloke who annoted the game said it was not a choice at that "level". This actually enrages me as I played KID for many years.

Are you at "that level"?

Well, We are influenced by play at "that level", aren't we? Many openings became popular and died out after being played at "that level". The Sicilian Defense would never have become popular and the King's Gambit would still have been considered the best opening today if we did not care about play at "that level". And the annotor was definitely way below "that level". I reckon he was not even an IM.

Avatar of Naifmando56

And about Stats, Chess.com's stats say that 1.d4 is so seriously good for white, he wins 30-35% of the time! So goodbye to 1.e4 eh?

Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Kramnik: The King's Indian is objectively unsound.

Avatar of pfren
SilentKnighte5 wrote:

Kramnik: The King's Indian is objectively unsound.

Actually it's the best way to play for a win with Black at high level Correspondence Chess, where it scores very well. The main reason is that engines do not understand it, and the player with better opening preparation (sometimes well over thirty moves) and proper understanding of the plans has excellent chances. Unsound? No. Very risky OTB, since the slightest mistake may prove fatal, but very sound- and rational, unlike those crazy poisoned pawn Sicilians, where the pieces are dropped randomly on squares.

Maybe the KID is unsound when you play it OTB against Kramnik. A couple of hours ago, Nakamura was demolished by Vlad when he fell into his preparation, without being able to put up any sort of resistance.

Avatar of lolurspammed

Kramnik has every right to look down on the KID, considering his record against it.

Avatar of ThrillerFan
AngeloPardi wrote:

Nakamura plays it and Radjabov beat Carlsen in a KID this year at the Gashimov memorial. 
It was one of Kasparov's mains opening.
The KID is still an option, but it doesn't suit MAgnus style. 

However, if you look more closely at Kasparov's games, by the mid-90s, he completely abolished it in favor of the Grunfeld.

Avatar of pfren

Well, playing that opening against Vlad needs either tons of courage, or stupidity. He understands the KID complex positions perfectly, and most of the times he comes out with a poisonous novelty handy- sometimes even playing the black hand! Such a case was probably today- it seems that after the natural 17...Rf7 Black may already be in grave trouble. My engine after a long thought suggests 17...Re8 and evaluates it as a very slight white advantage (probably just equal), but I am pretty sure Vlad has analysed that one thoroughly as well.

Avatar of AlisonHart

The KID *has* been used at the WCC level - Kasparov used it against Karpov a ton: Twice in 1986 (drew both games), three times in '87 (3 more draws), and another 7 times in 1990 (5 draws, 2 losses) which we could definitely call 'main repertoire' for the match. He didn't use it against Annand because Annand was an e4 player, but we have no reason to believe that he was *afraid* to trot out the KID in that match.

 

KID isn't really Carlsen's style (nor is the Grunfeld, but that's a different discussion) - we all know what he likes: A pawn up in an endgame and a good chance to outmaneuver you irrespective of what you and Houdini discussed before the game. The KID isn't much good for that kind of thinking as it's a cutthroat checkmating attack from black's perspective. His play in the Nimzo in game 9 made me wonder why he wasn't playing  *that* more often as it seems tailor made for a guy like Magnus, but he won and I'm a patzer, so what do I know?