Learning 1.e4 e5 thoroughly

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Avatar of I_Am_Second
Chicken_Monster wrote:
I_Am_Second wrote:

I steer clear of double e-pawn openings.  To much to learn, to much to study, to much to remember, to much work. 

Of course, one could make that argument about the entire game of chess.

What do you do instead, specifically?

I play the English as white, and the Benko/Benoni as black.  I dont like studying openings ( i find it boring) so i keep the opening as simplified as possible.  As a GM once said: The opening serves 1 purpose.  To get to a playable middle game.

I prefer to study, and learn the pawn structures behind openings.  Memorizing lines of theory bores me to tears. 

As long as i can get to a playable middlegame im good.

Avatar of I_Am_Second
csalami wrote:
I_Am_Second írta:
Chicken_Monster wrote:

I want to learn 1.e4 e5 well...especially as Black for now. However, I would also like to learn it from White's perspective.

I want a repertoire(s), but I ALSO want to UNDERSTAND the reasonings behind each move. I want to be able to play the Ruy Lopez, Petrov, Italian, Marshall Attack, Marshall Gambit, Berlin, Scotch, Four Knights, you name it -- whatever may arise.

What set of books would you recommend? I would imagine I would probably need material on levels anywhere between beginner on up.

I have the Kaufmann books, and they have lines to play...but they assume one already understands the reasoning for the moves (for the most part). Thanks.

I steer clear of double e-pawn openings.  To much to learn, to much to study, to much to remember, to much work. 

What? You have to make moves like Nc6, Nf6, Bc5/e7 d5/d6 etc. These moves are the most natural in the world. Of course, move orders are sometimes important against certain gambits, (many gambits can be simply declined and you can play chess, for example Evans gambit with the simple Bb6) but you can learn them.

The only serious try for white after e4-e5 Nf3 Nc6 is The ruy lopez, you have many options against that, everything else is just easy equality for black. Of course you should know the plans, but that is true for any opening. 

I think there is more theory that you have to know in any single open sicilian line than in the whole e4-e5. 

I dont play e4, or e5 so im good :-)

Avatar of TheOldReb
csalami wrote:
I_Am_Second írta:
Chicken_Monster wrote:

I want to learn 1.e4 e5 well...especially as Black for now. However, I would also like to learn it from White's perspective.

I want a repertoire(s), but I ALSO want to UNDERSTAND the reasonings behind each move. I want to be able to play the Ruy Lopez, Petrov, Italian, Marshall Attack, Marshall Gambit, Berlin, Scotch, Four Knights, you name it -- whatever may arise.

What set of books would you recommend? I would imagine I would probably need material on levels anywhere between beginner on up.

I have the Kaufmann books, and they have lines to play...but they assume one already understands the reasoning for the moves (for the most part). Thanks.

I steer clear of double e-pawn openings.  To much to learn, to much to study, to much to remember, to much work. 

What? You have to make moves like Nc6, Nf6, Bc5/e7 d5/d6 etc. These moves are the most natural in the world. Of course, move orders are sometimes important against certain gambits, (many gambits can be simply declined and you can play chess, for example Evans gambit with the simple Bb6) but you can learn them.

The only serious try for white after e4-e5 Nf3 Nc6 is The ruy lopez, you have many options against that, everything else is just easy equality for black. Of course you should know the plans, but that is true for any opening. 

I think there is more theory that you have to know in any single open sicilian line than in the whole e4-e5. 

You think wrong .  

Avatar of aggressivesociopath
Chicken_Monster wrote:

I thought you were talking about the liquor!

Wait let me consult with my notes.....now wait a second, all I said was I have a line against it. I never said "I learned how to play" it. I don't know what you mean by that. I just have a line that I have written down that I can use against it. I have been told not to learn things thoroughly.

You have a rating of 1886 and you don't have a line against the Scotch? Come on!

Of course I have a line against the Scotch.

Does your line against the Scotch have an assessment? How did you pick it? Right now if you were to face the Scotch against equal opposition, what would happen?

At the risk of incuring Bill Clinton jokes: what does "having" a line mean? Or maybe it is more of "a once I had a line, or should I say once it had me."

Avatar of Chicken_Monster
aggressivesociopath wrote:
Chicken_Monster wrote:

I thought you were talking about the liquor!

Wait let me consult with my notes.....now wait a second, all I said was I have a line against it. I never said "I learned how to play" it. I don't know what you mean by that. I just have a line that I have written down that I can use against it. I have been told not to learn things thoroughly.

You have a rating of 1886 and you don't have a line against the Scotch? Come on!

Of course I have a line against the Scotch.

Does your line against the Scotch have an assessment? How did you pick it? Right now if you were to face the Scotch against equal opposition, what would happen?

At the risk of incuring Bill Clinton jokes: what does "having" a line mean? Or maybe it is more of "a once I had a line, or should I say once it had me."

I have lines for girls when I am drinking Scotch.

A low-level (certainly not a GM) gave the line to me. I would come out of the opening losing for sure, that's why we chose it. I don't know if I would win after that. That's silly question. What is the point you are failing and flailing to make? That you didn't inhale?

Avatar of Chicken_Monster
Reb wrote:
csalami wrote:
I_Am_Second írta:
Chicken_Monster wrote:

I want to learn 1.e4 e5 well...especially as Black for now. However, I would also like to learn it from White's perspective.

I want a repertoire(s), but I ALSO want to UNDERSTAND the reasonings behind each move. I want to be able to play the Ruy Lopez, Petrov, Italian, Marshall Attack, Marshall Gambit, Berlin, Scotch, Four Knights, you name it -- whatever may arise.

What set of books would you recommend? I would imagine I would probably need material on levels anywhere between beginner on up.

I have the Kaufmann books, and they have lines to play...but they assume one already understands the reasoning for the moves (for the most part). Thanks.

I steer clear of double e-pawn openings.  To much to learn, to much to study, to much to remember, to much work. 

What? You have to make moves like Nc6, Nf6, Bc5/e7 d5/d6 etc. These moves are the most natural in the world. Of course, move orders are sometimes important against certain gambits, (many gambits can be simply declined and you can play chess, for example Evans gambit with the simple Bb6) but you can learn them.

The only serious try for white after e4-e5 Nf3 Nc6 is The ruy lopez, you have many options against that, everything else is just easy equality for black. Of course you should know the plans, but that is true for any opening. 

I think there is more theory that you have to know in any single open sicilian line than in the whole e4-e5. 

You think wrong .  

That's the most you will get out of this gentleman who ostensbily spreads his copious advice all over my threads I am told.

You think wrong. BRILLIANT. Sounds like lip flapping with nothing of substance again.

Avatar of csalami

Of course on the 2200+ level you should know the theory whatever you play. But below 2000, wasting time on weak openings like the vienna game or ponziani and similar openings just doesn't make any sense. Normal logical developing moves are fine. What you really have to know below 2000 is just the scotch game/gambit, the italian (the gambits) (the two knights defense if you play that but Bc5 is much simpler) and of course the Ruy lopez. And again, there are a few critical moves/move orders you have to know on move 5-6-7 (approximately), nothing special. After that, what matters is understanding and planning, these are not some sharp lines of sicilian defense. Again, on the 2200+ level things are different because you want to get advantage against weak openings like ponziani, but below 2000 it's enough if you know to play d5 and you are ok. (Serious players of course don't play ponziani, it was just an example)
And of course against weak gambits you can learn something in a couple of minutes or you can decline it and play chess. (Danish gambit, or the one that start like the danish but you take the pawn on c3 and things like that) Even the king's gambit is simple, just play 2..d5 and then take the f4 pawn, again nothing to fear, and no need for endless theory. 

Avatar of TheOldReb

Why bother to give real advice to lip flappers who won't use it ?  You are an outstanding example , in fact .  

Avatar of SmyslovFan

What more does Reb have to say to that comment? The comment was factually wrong. He didn't need to say anything more.

Avatar of Chicken_Monster
csalami wrote:

Of course on the 2200+ level you should know the theory whatever you play. But below 2000, wasting time on weak openings like the vienna game or ponziani and similar openings just doesn't make any sense. Normal logical developing moves are fine. What you really have to know below 2000 is just the scotch game/gambit, the italian (the gambits) (the two knights defense if you play that but Bc5 is much simpler) and of course the Ruy lopez. And again, there are a few critical moves/move orders you have to know on move 5-6-7 (approximately), nothing special. After that, what matters is understanding and planning, these are not some sharp lines of sicilian defense. Again, on the 2200+ level things are different because you want to get advantage against weak openings like ponziani, but below 2000 it's enough if you know to play d5 and you are ok. (Serious players of course don't play ponziani, it was just an example)
And of course against weak gambits you can learn something in a couple of minutes or you can decline it and play chess. (Danish gambit, or the one that start like the danish but you take the pawn on c3 and things like that) Even the king's gambit is simple, just play 2..d5 and then take the f4 pawn, again nothing to fear, and no need for endless theory. 

I think some people might disagree with a few things there. Actually, I know several on this site. I remember what they have said. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that there are some very strong players who disagree with some of those statements. I'm no expert, but I remember what experts have said. Of course, some would agree.

Avatar of TheOldReb

Chicken ... I just looked at a recent game of yours in a theme tourney , Ruy Lopez, Chigorin defense . In just a handful of moves you gave away two pieces . I think the first thing you need to concentrate on is not giving away your pieces and after you fix that  problem you can move on . If you give away pieces it wont matter how thoroughly you know anything you will still lose .... 

Avatar of Chicken_Monster
Reb wrote:

Chicken ... I just looked at a recent game of yours in a theme tourney , Ruy Lopez, Chigorin defense . In just a handful of moves you gave away two pieces . I think the first thing you need to concentrate on is not giving away your pieces and after you fix that  problem you can move on . If you give away pieces it wont matter how thoroughly you know anything you will still lose .... 

That's true. Actually, I agree with NM Reb on this one. I must be on cat nip. So like, try to take their pieces...but don't let them take your guys?

No but seriously I get it. Typical beginner mistake.

I messed up and got into a situation where I had over fifty games going at once. Not an excuse, just pointing out that I realize I need to slow down, play fewer games, and think longer. I may have lost pieces anyway due to being outplayed, but I have been letting them hang too much recently. I have also really concentrated and given a Candidate Master a tough match..then hung a Queen and it was over. Of course, he would have killed me anyway. Going to get the number of games down to 3-7.

Avatar of aggressivesociopath

I did not have a point. I asked about what you have been doing to learn the open game. Your response was caviler, so I asked follow up questions. Your response left me wondering if you were using subnormal definitions, so I asked more questions. I never got an answer. Answering the questions I asked (ignoring the obvious sexual pun on "had") is knowing the opening. Ok the Socratic Method is dead. Here lies its gravestone.

Avatar of Chicken_Monster

@aggressivesociopath

Definitely do not want to anger you (given your chosen alias). Ahem.

Got the Scotch line from a book. It is good. It has ben tested by Komodo recently. I may have played it twice. I don't know precisely what you mean by "assessment" insofar as a chess context is concerned. Does that mean what will be by ADV coming out of the opening? I'm a beginner, sort of, so not sure that matters. Does my ADV at my level matter withing a few tenths of a point? Then you asked if I would win. How the heck should I know that lol?

Is that what you were asking?

Avatar of TheGreatOogieBoogie
Chicken_Monster wrote:
Reb wrote:

Chicken ... I just looked at a recent game of yours in a theme tourney , Ruy Lopez, Chigorin defense . In just a handful of moves you gave away two pieces . I think the first thing you need to concentrate on is not giving away your pieces and after you fix that  problem you can move on . If you give away pieces it wont matter how thoroughly you know anything you will still lose .... 

That's true. Actually, I agree with NM Reb on this one. I must be on cat nip. So like, try to take their pieces...but don't let them take your guys?

No but seriously I get it. Typical beginner mistake.

I messed up and got into a situation where I had over fifty games going at once. Not an excuse, just pointing out that I realize I need to slow down, play fewer games, and think longer. I may have lost pieces anyway due to being outplayed, but I have been letting them hang too much recently. I have also really concentrated and given a Candidate Master a tough match..then hung a Queen and it was over. Of course, he would have killed me anyway. Going to get the number of games down to 3-7.

You want CT-ART 5.0 and go through CT-ART Beginner.  There's also Simple Defense but I'd buy that as part of a package deal with other prorgrams to save overall.  You have a counting and visualization issue you need to iron out. 

Avatar of TheGreatOogieBoogie
Avatar of Chicken_Monster

@Vegan: already talked to you. We'll pay when I get my games down.

@Oogie: Thanks for annotating that. I saved a copy of your annotations to study. Does the CT-ART software offer something different than, say, chesstempo? Or would either be suitable?

Avatar of I_Am_Second
Chicken_Monster wrote:

@Vegan: already talked to you. We'll pay when I get my games down.

@Oogie: Thanks for annotating that. I saved a copy of your annotations to study. Does the CT-ART software offer something different than, say, chesstempo? Or would either be suitable?

I have CT-ART 3.0, and it is awesome!  Excellent software.  The advantage is that you dont need to be online to use it. 

Avatar of I_Am_Second

“Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”

I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.


Avatar of Chicken_Monster

"I fear the man who has a gun." -Chicken

I know the first quote was Bruce Lee. I love it.

The second as well? I haven't heard the second quote.

Man, I didn't know he knew that many kicks. He was REALLY good.

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