Transposition to Systems that are Ordinarily Unobtainable (i.e Dutch)

Actually if you spent the time actually reading the comments you would find that somebody posted a variation on the anti-dutch system in the GM's video and said that he had not analyzed the position with a computer but he was sure the position was at least equal. I obliged by analyzing his position with a computer to find that he was correct. 

SO STOP POSTING YOUR HATEFUL REMARKS ON THIS DISCUSSION

What really annoys me is the fact that the I have at least shown how the ideal Dutch setups are unobtainable if white plays agressive anti-dutch moves from the opening and that white can castle Queen side with an attack - but also that a Dutch setup (or stronger) can be obtained later in the game by what you might call transposition and therefore a stronger position is potentially obtainable than starting with the Dutch system - perhaps announcing your intention to play the Stonewall or Leningrad System and allowing your opponent to develop for and make plans against your position.

So poly I hope you enjoy playing against your Cracker.

The first 10 or so moves were book moves that ended in a position that scored well for white in some cases, I think Ne8 then f5 was a strong answer to my opponents plan with Nh2, also slowing down any plans with Ne5. I had a plan to consolodate then the maintain a defensive structure with the e-pawn with Kh7 and the bishops on f7 and g7, perhaps the e-pawn should have moved to e6 to support f5 instead of e5 for the attack.

Perhaps I could transpose to a Dutch system from QGD without any negative issues from whites knight / pawn structure.

It is always the case that if someone plays an  "anti" line you can't play the normal opening. So shouldn't even try to do it then. There are simply better tries to attempt then.
To use an analogy:
Your saying the Ruy Lopez is busted because black can play scandinavian.

If your opponent starts with Nf3 it simply isn't that nice to play the Dutch. It is playable though, but dangerious for black.

This is not that nice for black. If you want to play the Dutch you can also play 1...d6. That way there is still a chance to go into the Dutch and if your opponent doesn't allow it you go into the pirc.

With ideal play from white you will always have a negative effect from something.
It's often said that in the Leningrad Black's ideal is to get a king indian with several tempi ahead. Which ofcourse relies on white making mistakes.

No, I was saying I was happy with a position that I could not attain from the Dutch, have you ever had the experience?

Are you asking me about that specific line?
I have never gotten that line myself. I quote the line from Kindermann's Leningrad System. The few times that I had 1.Nf3 f4 they transposed into a normal Dutch with d4/c4.

After Nf3 d6 is a good attempt to be solid and still have a chance of going into the Leningrad.

Well as I was saying the normal Dutch would be great if I could get avoid Ne5, I don't play well with the knight on e5, perhaps there is a trick to the pawn structure after Nxe5 and either fxe5 or dxe5.

The pawn on d6 prevents a knight on e5 for a long time.

This system is black's most ambitious try in the Dutch, and the most dangerious one for either sides.

Vacuous, I have a question for you:

Is this a Dutch?

Last time I looked, it was still a Dutch.  And even if they play an "anti-Dutch" against me, it is still a Dutch.  It is like saying this is not a Sicilian:

It's still a Sicilian, just a slightly different type.  Black needs to be ready for White's aggressive attempts.

This is no different for a Dutch player (I should know).  You have to be prepared for these "offbeat" systems.  Honestly, not many people play them, and often, they play them without really knowing the ins and out of them anyway.  So I still do fine.  

whatever ... 

In which sense the dutch is "not always obtainable"? W can't prevent you from reaching a sound dutch setup. Of course you can't play always the same as black against everything white trows at you. For example 1.d4 f5 is certainly the right move order for leningrad players, but stonewall addicts might dislike 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5!? where the best move is 2...g6 as far as i know. If you want to play a stonewall is maybe better to start with e6, accepting the eventual trasposition to a french defense. This however is not a specifical problem of the dutch defense. Chess is a game where you should usally think before moving and watch out for your opponent response. There is not a single opening setup in the entire theory that can be reached by force. 

I played a similar line to this in live chess earlier ...

3.Qh5 is not the correct way to play the staunton gambit. With Qh5 black probably even has the advantage. With correct play from black ofcourse.

This is more in the spirit of the staunton:

Actually you are correct, however I was lucky and my opponent did not play the best moves.

I can imagine. It is always hard to play against these things correctly under short time control.

But you realize that this transposition or whatever you are talking about won't happen if white plays regularly and plays c4 right...

Playing the Dutch with 1...f5 is a way to guarantee that you get the setup you want provided your opponent doesn't play an anto-Dutch line).

And as for playing the Dutch through a QGD or Slav setup, its possible but you have to watch out for the Bf4 idea to exchange DSBs. BUT, if you play the French you can use the 1...e6 move order.

The Dutch may have flaws here and there but its a viable defense. There isn't much theory in the Stonewall and can be played against anything but 1.e4. I was going to try out 2.bg5 vs the Dutch but then realized that IF the attack doesn't happen properly, then Black is fine and may be better (esp if he manages to castle Queenside....)

Vacuous, that is basically my take on your take on the Dutch. My question is, why does it have to be a Dutch just because you played ...f5 in the middlegame?  Your setup was nothing like a Dutch.  There are tons of setups that use ...f5 later that are not the Dutch (Latvian Gambit, Schielemann Defense, Colorado Countergambit), but they aren't the Dutch.  They share the fact that the f-pawn is advanced.  

My definition of the Dutch is strictly 1. d4 f5.  There are some setups that merge into Dutch waters, such as 1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5, or 1. d4 g6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 f5 (most of the time, a Dutchie will try stuff like this via 1...f5 anyway). 

But to say the Dutch is unobtainable is maybe better put in saying certain setups are unobtainable.  For instance, if I face 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5, I cannot automatically play ...e6.  That is known.  But that doesn't prevent me from playing other moves - those are still classified under Dutch Defense, because they resulted from positions that arise after 1. d4 f5.  

Idiotic.   Your opening is clearly NOT a Dutch.  jeez.

getting the move ...f5 in for black at some point in the opening doesn't make it a dutch. what a foolio.

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