Opening Theory Is Pointless For Most People That Will Ever Play. Why Bother?

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Avatar of kindaspongey
penandpaper0089 wrote:

... Tactical skill is at work at all times. Opening knowledge is not. ...

Does something have to be at work at all times in order to be useful?

Avatar of kindaspongey
penandpaper0089 wrote:
JMurakami wrote:

... I can say the same: You're missing the point.

Openings studies aren't relevant to tactical oversights, hence the title in the thread is misguiding. If anything, studying a system makes it less likely to blunder as the typical plans and tactics go into the study.

Your claim could be accepted if opening studies are just theory and memorizing movements. That, again, is a faulty interpretation of what studying a system is about.

A few days ago I was watching some blitz games from Nakamura. For starters, he plays different than in bullet, where he secures his king fast, keeps the pawns in 2nd and 3rd, and begins the tactical grind by move 12 or so. In blitz he's more into preparing long lasting pressure, so the tactics will begin after move 20, but avoids fixed pawn structures, thus keeping the chance for pawn breaks to set all his pieces free into full activity all over the board. That's strategy that works no matter the level of play, and guides him on which plans (from all available at the start) to follow. Now, imagine he would've to develop a plan (instead of choosing one) during the game.... he'd likely lose many games on time, or blunder a lot.

See, if you feel it's okay for you not to spend time studying the openings' systems, please go ahead. Just don't advice others to follow that road because you're actually sending them to a lot of loses, not having a clue why they lost nor the means to fix it.

... I'm not sure why you are saying that by following a plan you'll always know what to do but ...

Is there a specific sentence where JMurakami wrote about always knowing what to do by following a plan? Is something only useful if it is always helpful?

Avatar of kindaspongey
penandpaper0089 wrote:

... You're unlikely to find this position in any opening book. You have to think on your own and find a plan. ...

Is something only useful if it enables one to completely avoid the necessity to think on one's own?

Avatar of kindaspongey
penandpaper0089 wrote:

... So again I don't see what good the opening was in this game for White. ...

"... Take the opening books away and [engines] play badly in the opening. ... Perhaps they get into horrible positions or even positionally lost ones. ..." - penandpaper0089
Is it useful to a human to have help avoiding a horrible position?

Avatar of dannyhume
I am not so sure... probably the balance thing is best, but honestly I feel like opening and middlegame “thinking” are quite the same, except that in the opening maybe it wouldn’t be so bad to study the first few moves to learn to avoid bad or get into good transpositions to keep the repertoire narrow for optimizing one’s learning and practical performance. The more concrete anchor points you have in your pattern recognition arsenal (e.g., concrete tactics and endgames; maybe some general positional/strategic principles), then that helps the calculation. For example, Karpov may only calculate 3 moves ahead, but that is because he can see long-term consequences just 3 moves ahead because he has so many concrete patterns in his arsenal. The rest of us don’t, so we have to calculate further to a more concrete anchor point that we see as beneficial (or stay in the big amateur chess haze). You can waste a lot of time studying the opening at the expense of other subjects.
Avatar of IMKeto
dannyhume wrote:
I am not so sure... probably the balance thing is best, but honestly I feel like opening and middlegame “thinking” are quite the same, except that in the opening maybe it wouldn’t be so bad to study the first few moves to learn to avoid bad or get into good transpositions to keep the repertoire narrow for optimizing one’s learning and practical performance. The more concrete anchor points you have in your pattern recognition arsenal (e.g., concrete tactics and endgames; maybe some general positional/strategic principles), then that helps the calculation. For example, Karpov may only calculate 3 moves ahead, but that is because he can see long-term consequences just 3 moves ahead because he has so many concrete patterns in his arsenal. The rest of us don’t, so we have to calculate further to a more concrete anchor point that we see as beneficial (or stay in the big amateur chess haze). You can waste a lot of time studying the opening at the expense of other subjects.

A lot of good points!

Avatar of SIowMove

I beat my first International Master in standard time by playing the French Defense, which I was quite new at. This was how it started:

4. b4!?

This was the first time I'd ever seen such a crazy opening move. And coming from a 2400-rated player, no less! I assumed it was some brilliant novelty, and was officially, at move 4, "out of book".

I held my head. I concentrated. I looked at several possible responses, and calculated them each several moves deep. Several minutes later, I played my response (...b6).

36 moves after that, my opponent resigned.

Sure, there was a lot of luck on my part (luck that my opponent made a few positional inaccuracies that led to a nice tactic; luck that I managed to avoid doing the same; luck that my opponent likely didn't try very hard after seeing my 1400 rating), but for the most part, it taught me that, while opening study can be useful, it also isn't required to play good chess.

Sure, you don't want to go into the game having absolutely no clue what to do from move one. Doing so can lead to a lot of Scholar's Mates, if one isn't careful. But why does the Scholar's Mate work? Is it because the losing player didn't study openings? Partially. But mostly it's because the losing player missed the tactic, didn't look ahead, and didn't ask himself why his opponent was developing his pieces in the way he was.

Let's say your opponent puts a knight on e2, for example. Do you think, "Which opening line is this that I've memorized?" If so, I'd argue that you're playing the opening incorrectly.

But if you look at the squares the e2 knight controls, and the possible outposts it can maneuver to, and you think, "What's my opponent planning with this move, and how can I weaken his plan, or take advantage of it?", then I'd say you're playing the opening correctly.

Do that with every single move and you're probably playing good chess, whether you're in a position you've studied or not.

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... In the middlegame and especially the endgame you can get a long way through relying on general principles and the calculation of variations; in the opening you can go very wrong very quickly if you don't know what ideas have worked and what haven't in the past. It has taken hundreds of years of trial and error by great minds like Alekhine and, in our day, Kasparov to reach our current knowledge of the openings. ..." - GM Neil McDonald (2001)

Avatar of SIowMove
kindaspongey wrote:

"It has taken hundreds of years of trial and error by great minds like Alekhine and, in our day, Kasparov to reach our current knowledge of the openings. ..." - GM Neil McDonald (2001)

I find it worth noting that McDonald specifically mentions "hundreds of years of trial and error". He could've said, "hundreds of years of studying", but chose not to. Wonder why?

Could it be because trying things out, making mistakes, and learning from them is a valid approach?

Avatar of kindaspongey
SIowMove wrote:

... I find it worth noting that McDonald specifically mentions "hundreds of years of trial and error". He could've said, "hundreds of years of studying", but chose not to. Wonder why?

Could it be because trying things out, making mistakes, and learning from them is a valid approach? ...

Maybe an approach that is a little slow? Especially for us nonAlekhines and nonKasparovs?

Also, with regard to your first question, if the chess world has not yet learned something by trial and error, where would one go to study it?

Avatar of penandpaper0089
JMurakami wrote:
penandpaper0089 wrote:
JMurakami wrote:

@penandpaper0089

Maybe this article can clarify what I'm saying to you.

I really don't know what you're getting at. All I saw was that Black blundered a pawn. And then White blundered a rook. Perhaps the middlegame was played well. That's not even my concern. The point is that White blundered a rook in broad daylight despite it. Maybe 9.Nc3 is bad. Ok sure. It's not losing or anything and Black is Ok. Again this is fine and is to be expected. And it's the exact kind of position I'm referring to. You're unlikely to find this position in any opening book. You have to think on your own and find a plan. And you have to calculate. After all ...Nb4 and ...Nf6+...Bb4 are threats in the position. maybe White is better here. But he still has to prove it in the face of tactical threats in the position. Whatever plan he chooses has to not lose to those simple threats.

You don't need an opening book to see that the pawn on e4 can no longer be protected by pawns or that ...Nb4 is a threat, that Black has a lead in development, the f-line and threats against the e-pawn. Luckily it wasn't decisive. But losing the rook was. So again I don't see what good the opening was in this game for White. Not losing and seeing the right tactics seemed to be all that was required to win.

That's all you see because that's all you want to see. Otherwise, it wouldn't fit into your theory of improving in chess by not studying certain parts of it.

By the way, how many hundreds of rating points since you saw the light?

Then why don't you explain how the opening in which White won a free pawn was so relevant in this game if it led to nothing more than a lost game on move 20 and how more opening study would have somehow prevented this.

Avatar of penandpaper0089

I get exactly what you're saying and understand that playing good moves gives you good positions and we should want good positions. But the fact of the matter is that if you can't hold them then what good are they? Its like being happy about the new Ferrari super car you just purchased and then proceeding to crash it on the very next block. If you can't actually drive the really nice car you just put time and resources into then you're gonna have a bad time.

Avatar of IMKeto
penandpaper0089 wrote:

I get exactly what you're saying and understand that playing good moves gives you good positions and we should want good positions. But the fact of the matter is that if you can't hold them then what good are they? Its like being happy about the new Ferrari super car you just purchased and then proceeding to crash it on the very next block. If you can't actually drive the really nice car you just put time and resources into then you're gonna have a bad time.

If youre not getting, or able to hold a good middlegame position, then no amount of opening knowledge will correct that.  Openings are simply 1/3 of the game.  

Avatar of penandpaper0089
FishEyedFools wrote:
penandpaper0089 wrote:

I get exactly what you're saying and understand that playing good moves gives you good positions and we should want good positions. But the fact of the matter is that if you can't hold them then what good are they? Its like being happy about the new Ferrari super car you just purchased and then proceeding to crash it on the very next block. If you can't actually drive the really nice car you just put time and resources into then you're gonna have a bad time.

If youre not getting, or able to hold a good middlegame position, then no amount of opening knowledge will correct that.  Openings are simply 1/3 of the game.  

Exactly. In fact this page is posted a lot here for people that want help with openings: http://exeterchessclub.org.uk/content/ten-rules-opening

There's a quote there by Portisch that says, "Your only task in the opening is to reach a playable middlegame." Great advice yeah? But what happens when all you do is lose those "playable" middlegames to tactics? Perhaps it's time to learn how to hold everything together in the middlegame before we look to improving the type of positions we actually reach in the opening.

In fact, if the engines have taught us anything it's that even the ugliest positions have plenty of tactical resources in them.

Avatar of ponz111

Don't agree with "Your only task in the opening is to reach a playable middlegame."  Those who would like to win more often and who would like to be stronger chess players will want to do better than that.

Avatar of IMKeto
ponz111 wrote:

Don't agree with "Your only task in the opening is to reach a playable middlegame."  Those who would like to win more often and who would like to be stronger chess players will want to do better than that.

Essentially, that is the only reason for the opening.  But again, if you dont know how to play the middlegame, all your opening prep is useless.  

Avatar of Ashvapathi

Middle game is generally a continuation of opening. Different openings give rise to different types of middle games. Generally, lack of opening knowledge gets exposed and exploited in the middle game.

Avatar of penandpaper0089
JMurakami wrote:

@penandpaper0089 #440:

I did explain it. Rather than paying attention to Black's actual threats, White played exactly as you're proposing: Opening moves not following a plan but general principles alone, i.e., development and center. Honestly, those principles date back to 1871! How can people believe there was no progress in the understanding of the opening ever since?

Instead, I gave the ideas White should've followed and the lines to support them. That is, the plans to counter Black's threats while finishing the development and the control or occupation of the center.

See, it's not understanding the opening you're playing or studying tactics, it'understanding the opening you're playing and studying tactics. In that game, when White was inferior (regardless of the extra pawn), he could've put up a fight by using tactics to diminish the concessions necessary in his defense. He didn't because they were against the principles and had no clue how and why he was inferior.

Should he have studied the openings leading to that sort of positions (Four Knights, Scottish, etc.), he would've been aware of the motifs against c2, f2, e4 and destruction of the pawn chains by pins against f3 and c3, the means to carry them out and the defensive methods against them.

Chess isn't that complicated. Players –mostly– lose because the things they don't know or don't see. Then lets not promote laziness and ignorance, shall we? The main difference at the highest level isn't lack of knowledge, but precision. Yet they're all aiming at the bull's eye. Not having a plan, not studying the plans available in certain positions, equals not having a clue where the bull's eye is. Quite amateurish in my book.

I'm not advocating playing without a plan at all. I'm advocating playing without wasting time with opening theory. These are not the same things. In fact we are in agreement that White needed to come up with a plan on the 9th move. However I'm more than sure that this could be done without looking at an opening book prior to the game. After all, it's something you do in all parts of the game and not simply the first moves. Would it be helpful? Sure. But it isn't necessary at all for most of us.

And no, you did not explain how opening knowledge would have prevented the move 20.Nb5? in your article or how it would allow White to see 1.Qg4+ in the OP. And funnily enough, but moves could have been seen had White simply looked for checks which is the most basic thing that tactics training teaches.

A simple calculation of, "If I play 20.Nb5 does he have any forcing moves? Oh yes 20...Be3+! Then 21.Kb1 weakens the rook and... Oh no! My rook is hanging!" This is what the entire point of the thread is. In both games the openings weren't great believe me and yet both sides managed to get into a blunderful middlegame in which tactics decided the game.

Avatar of kindaspongey
penandpaper0089 wrote:

... Then why don't you explain how the opening in which White won a free pawn was so relevant in this game if it led to nothing more than a lost game on move 20 and how more opening study would have somehow prevented this.

Did anyone say that opening study prevents losing?

Someone did say this:

"... Take the opening books away and [engines] play badly in the opening. ... Perhaps they get into horrible positions or even positionally lost ones. ..." - penandpaper0089
Is it useful to a human to have help avoiding a horrible position?

Avatar of TurtlesAreLife
kindaspongey wrote:
penandpaper0089 wrote:

... Then why don't you explain how the opening in which White won a free pawn was so relevant in this game if it led to nothing more than a lost game on move 20 and how more opening study would have somehow prevented this.

Did anyone say that opening study prevents losing?

Someone did say this:

"... Take the opening books away and [engines] play badly in the opening. ... Perhaps they get into horrible positions or even positionally lost ones. ..." - panandpaper0089
Is it useful to a human to have help avoiding a horrible position?

I Understand Nothing That You Are Saying