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Panov-Botvinnik exd5

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TitanCG

In this position White is aiming for an isolated pawn but is recapturing with a pawn any worse for Black? 



ghostofmaroczy
pfren wrote:

It ought to be somewhat worse

Agreed.  Why on earth would Black willingly accept that pawn structure when ...Nxd5 is available?

Frainbreeze

5...Nc6 would be somewhat better I guess

5...Be6

5...g6

TitanCG
ghostofmaroczy wrote:
pfren wrote:

It ought to be somewhat worse

Agreed.  Why on earth would Black willingly accept that pawn structure when ...Nxd5 is available?

I'm not sure why it matters. Maybe ...Nxd5 is the normal move but I don't see what's so great about White's position after ...exd5. It looks like Black can just castle and develop normally. 

ghostofmaroczy
Frainbreeze wrote:

5...Nc6 would be somewhat better I guess

5...Be6

5...g6

There is nothing wrong with 5...e6, Brainfreeze.  Why are you suggesting alternatives?

Ziggy_Zugzwang
TitanCG wrote:
ghostofmaroczy wrote:
pfren wrote:

It ought to be somewhat worse

Agreed.  Why on earth would Black willingly accept that pawn structure when ...Nxd5 is available?

I'm not sure why it matters. Maybe ...Nxd5 is the normal move but I don't see what's so great about White's position after ...exd5. It looks like Black can just castle and develop normally. 

I was watching Roman's video on the Panov yesterday and he addressed that point - but I think you raise an interesting point. After all, superficially, it seems like an exchange French with the c pawns missing ?

I played an analogous position OTB a few weeks ago defending a Nimzo and I captured with the e pawn rather than the knight, reasoning that my LSB was let out with more activity. I lost the game and statisticswise and Fritzwise my capture was an error - but you are quite right not to slavishly accept the received wisdom without testing it IMHO.

TheGreatOogieBoogie

I don't care too much for the mutual isolated d-pawns.  They tend to favor knights all else being equal (c5+e5 for white and c4+e4 for black are great outposts because pawns can't shoo them away), and both sides share the same open files.  I like play with semi-open files since the play tends to be more enriching.  I like the Panov-Botvinnik against the Caro-Kahn because it keeps things open just not the cxd5 varition. 

Silly coming from an exchange French player?  Maybe, but 1.e4,e6 2.d4,d5 3.exd5,exd5 4.c4 leads to a somewhat similar position. 

Ziggy_Zugzwang
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

I don't care too much for the mutual isolated d-pawns.  They tend to favor knights all else being equal (c5+e5 for white and c4+e4 for black are great outposts because pawns can't shoo them away), and both sides share the same open files.  I like play with semi-open files since the play tends to be more enriching.  I like the Panov-Botvinnik against the Caro-Kahn because it keeps things open just not the cxd5 varition. 

Silly coming from an exchange French player?  Maybe, but 1.e4,e6 2.d4,d5 3.exd5,exd5 4.c4 leads to a somewhat similar position. 

I tried to make something with that postion as white for quite some time with not much success...

Ziggy_Zugzwang

With the initial position you give white will play Bd3. With the French Monte Carlo variation , black gains time by not resolving the tension until white has played bd3/e2 and then plays dc.

White can reach the "Monte Carlo" position via QGA and 1d4 d5 2c4 dc 3e3 with a better position than via the French because of the tempo thing with the bishops's pawn. Just goes to show how one tempo can be important.

Ziggy_Zugzwang

...Afterthought. In the French positions black still has his c pawn which isn't the case with the Panov.

TitanCG

I ran into this position again while watching games. Roman played this although here I think he ended up with too many weaknesses in the endgame. Maybe 11...Qa5 was not the best move.



InfiniteFlash

I'm no expert on openings, but I've always felt that 5..Nc6 offers more lively games.

Sure, white can try the boring 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Qb3 which leads to the famous endgame or a sharp semi-middlegame every person has played before.

And against 6.Bg5 imo caro-players should give Ne4!? a whirl (everyone play 6..dxc4, g6, e6 these days) 7.Nxe4 dxe4 8.d5 Ne5 9.Qd4 f6 gives black positions that haven't been explored too in-depth...much play left for originality there.

InfiniteVoidz
TitanCG wrote:

In this position White is aiming for an isolated pawn but is recapturing with a pawn any worse for Black?

It's somewhat worse considering that Black is giving themselves an isolated pawn and Nxd5 is better for your pawn structure.

magipi
InfiniteVoidz wrote:
TitanCG wrote:

In this position White is aiming for an isolated pawn but is recapturing with a pawn any worse for Black?

It's somewhat worse considering that Black is giving themselves an isolated pawn and Nxd5 is better for your pawn structure.

You've been thinking on this for more than 10 years, I see.