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Philidor's Defense Exchange variation

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gregkluzak

What do you think of this opening? I tried it and I like it because when white plays Nxd4 I think that the knight is now on a bad square. It's better on f3. There seems to be good possibilities with this opening.

ZenRat

Don't think a lot one way or the other.  It's the mainline, so the capture is a good one.  White is very strong here, and the mainlines certainly favor white...but black is fine, too.  Not sure what else to tell you.

mrguy888
gregkluzak wrote:

 

What do you think of this opening? I tried it and I like it because when white plays Nxd4 I think that the knight is now on a bad square. It's better on f3. There seems to be good possibilities with this opening.

 


D4 is not a bad square. White gets more space and easier development.

mrguy888
ajedrecito wrote:

I agree with the above poster. d4 is quite a good square for the Knight. Sometimes (specifically in the Larsen variation with 4...g6 and opposite side castling) the Knight is a target for Black's queenside aggression with c5, b5, c4 etc. but in general a knight in the center is as strong as a piece.


But if c5 is played to chase around the Knight then white is more than compensated by the backward d6 pawn.

mrguy888
ajedrecito wrote:

Generally, that's the case. In some concrete positions it's actually in Black's best interest to push c5, but this usually is the case after the White Bishop has moved to c4 (or b3) and can be trapped or threatened.


True, but I find many players press c5 right after you put a knight on d4 in this position. I think it might be a reason the OP thinks a d4 knight is weak when that is not a weakness.

DonnieDarko1980

I like Tarrasch's line (4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Bb5) better than 4. Nxd4.

Good that you bring up Philidor's Defense once again, yesterday I scored a pretty easy win OTB with white against it (however not 3. ... exd4 but 3. ... Bg4?!) I'm always glad if after 1. e4 e5 my opponent plays this :)

ZenRat
ajedrecito wrote:

4...Nc6 is inaccurate I believe, with a preference going among Philidor players to 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 followed by castling and only then playing Nc6.


I think that among high-level Philidor players, 4...a6 has been in favor against 4.Qxd4 for a while now, with my database showing black with a plus score in this line.  I understood it is the reason the early queen capture has essentially disappeared from master play.

DonnieDarko1980

I can't remember a game in which 4. Qxd4 was not replied by 4. ... Nc6, however my games are not "master level" :)

AlexLero

Having a game right now as white with the Phil Exchange, which I followed with standard moves book but then black replied with a surprise:

3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 c5

 

With 4. ...c5 Black is making me pick off pawns rather than develop. Not sure what Black's game is here. I'm shuffling pieces now...arg, I hate moving pieces twice early! 5. Nf3... again! Back and forth.

ThrillerFan

This opening isn't very good for Black.  The Antoshin and Larsen variations have both proven good for White (as has the Counter-Gambit line, 3...f5), and the Hanham, via 3...Nf6 instead of 3...exd4, White should play the Exchange Variation (3...exd4 is NOT the Exchange Variation), namely 4.dxe5 Nxe4 (This constitutes the "Exchange" Variation) 5.Qd5!.

If Black wants to play the Philidor, I would recommend the Hanham Variation, but getting there via a different move order:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and now Black has 2 choices, depending on which "Anti-Philidor" line he would rather face:

A) 3...e5 and if 4.Nf3, then 4...Nbd7 is the Hanham.  Otherwise, Black must be willing to play the endgame line with 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 and White has 6.Bc4 or 6.Bg5 at his disposal.  Both lead to the same basic miniscule advantage that White gets for going first.

B) 3...Nd7 (If Black isn't willing to deal with the Queen trade) allows 4.f4 or 4.g4, while 4.Nf3 Nf6 is the Hanham.

AlexLero

Wait, is it the Phil exchange or not?

http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-opening-database/moves/e4-e5-Nf3-d6-d4-exd4-nxd4

Here's my plan as white:

1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 d6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 c5 

Scottrf
jontycampbell wrote:

With 4. ...c5 Black is making me pick off pawns rather than develop. Not sure what Black's game is here. I'm shuffling pieces now...arg, I hate moving pieces twice early! 5. Nf3... again! Back and forth.

 

If he chases with his pawns he isn't developing pieces either.

AlexLero
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waffllemaster
jontycampbell wrote:

Having a game right now as white with the Phil Exchange, which I followed with standard moves book but then black replied with a surprise:

3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 c5

with 4. ...c5 Black is making me pick off pawns rather than develop. Not sure what Black's game is here. I'm shuffling pieces now...arg, I hate moving pieces twice early! 5. Nf3... again! Back and forth



When I was first learning basics (backward pawns, knight outposts and such) I came upon the position you posted and after a long think I was very proud to find Ne2 planning Nf4-d5 and Nc3 which also hits d5... I thought I was becoming a chess genius Smile

Anyway... as others say, c5 is very bad.

AlexLero
pfren wrote:

I guess after 5.Bb5+ Bd7 6.Nc3 the knight on d4 is poisoned... or you simply blundered it? 

My knight on d4 was there after standard Philidor play but I wasn't going to let black have a pawn-knight exchange . Could have gone back to f3, but with my e4 pawn I guess f5 is good for my knight at the moment.

So far
 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 d6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 c5 5. Bb5+ Bd7

6. Nc3 a6 7. BxB+ NxB 8. Nf3

I'm thinking of Bf4 next, then castling.

AlexLero
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waffllemaster

I don't know the theory on who is better and such, but it always seemed to me the philidor gave white small but somewhat permanent edge.  Black gives the impression of being very solid (I guess that's what the opening is known for) but I'm always happy to see it played against me.

Somewhat the same with the Ruy exchange.  White has a small edge, but it feels rather permanent... in these cases though I'm usually fearful of the super complex closed ruy in which I have very little experience.

waffllemaster
jontycampbell wrote:

But it wasn't, it went 6. Nc3 a6

Pfren is right, you gave this line twice:

After 6.Nc3 there's no reason black can't take your knight on d4.

AlexLero

 

Yes, I guess I was lucky there. My immediate instinct after black's weird 8...Qf6 is to establish what would be a double Knight outpost with 9.Nd5 though black could reply with g6

The two other moves I've in mind is to finish my (postponed) development with Bf4, which I'd prefer, or to castle, but that seems passive and needless at this time. As long as black is screwing around and I'm developing... 

AlexLero

with black's queen retreating back to d8 I'm afforded a bit of breathing room and I'm thinking 10.Qe2 or Qd2, 0-0 or Bf4