Pirc 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and the value of king safety

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MrFahrenKnight

pirc  1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and the value of king safety

 so i've been looking at a particular variation of the pirc.

from the opening 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the second most favoured response is 4. e5 which over a third of masters play. 

then what surpised me more is the second most favoured response to that move which i would, personally, have put top.

4. dxe5

the play rate by masters being too high to suggest that it was anything other than deliberate and must be deemed to be sound by definition of their rating.

this clearly leads to an exchange of queens and black's inability to castle at the expense of a pawn.


so this has got me thinking. do i overvalue king safety? is it not worth a pawn sac? as currently, i'd sac a pawn off every time to get to that position.

what am i missing? clearly masters see some value in this position, otherwise they'd not play it.

 interested in the feedback.

Schlectere

Im not seeing the pawn sac. The position on the board after 4 dxe5 is completely balanced except for blacks inability to castle. White is for choice because of that, but queens are off the board and the center is static, so black is not really troubled by this line. This move order for black is considered a more accurate way of entering into the philidor defence because white can sieze the initiative after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5. 

MrFahrenKnight

omg. you're right. there's no pawn sac. i've no idea why i said that lol. i think in my mind i assumed one for compensation.

however, surely black must lose tempo just getting the king out of the centre? a simple white queenside castle is an immediate check with tempo for example?

it just seems weird. without moving the king forward black at least blocks one rook and as soon as he does he closes off a centre file for one rook? wherever it goes, it seems worse than castling and tempo is lost. 

the king rook, for example, can only reasonably develop with the king moving onto the 7th rank? and it still blocks a file. worse with itself?

i think i need to follow a few games through and maybe re-evaluate some hard wired assumptions i've built over time. i'm just programmed to see this as bad.

Schlectere

A couple standard lines might be

 

BronsteinPawn

c6-Kc7 and the king may be even better placed than a castled king.

BronsteinPawn

@Schlectere 

I think 6.Bg5 is bad, better is Bc4!

Also, Black will never play Kc8, that just leaves him worse, Black usually plays c6-Kc7 as mentioned earlier.

Idrinkyourhealth2

When the game has no queens there is no need to castle since your king doesn't have any risk of being checkmated in the middlegame, castling is a waste of time

Schlectere

I wonder if black is still fine after Bc4 Be6. Obviously, doubled isolated pawns look bad, but exploiting black's setup is not easy.

MrFahrenKnight
Schlectere wrote:

A couple standard lines might be

 

 

i think this part of my point. in the above, the king rook is now blocked. development must occur by pushing the a-pawn now? even assuming the white bishop is not covering that diagonal, it's at least 2 moves to develop in any kind of fashion and 3 to get onto centre files?

Schlectere

In the 6. Bg5 line, white can force black to play Kc8 no matter what for example


,

 

MrFahrenKnight
Idrinkyourhealth2 wrote:

When the game has no queens there is no need to castle since your king doesn't have any risk of being checkmated in the middlegame, castling is a waste of time

but castling is better for tempo? and the game is still, at this early stage ,largely underdeveloped? let's not forget, black starts slightly down on tempo.

MrFahrenKnight
BronsteinPawn wrote:

c6-Kc7 and the king may be even better placed than a castled king.

ah. i think i got it. it's a trade for king position and one tempo.

BronsteinPawn
Schlectere escribió:

I wonder if black is still fine after Bc4 Be6. Obviously, doubled isolated pawns look bad, but exploiting black's setup is not easy.

He is. Just an equal endgame with grinding chances for White.

BronsteinPawn
pfren escribió:

First, this is not a Pirc, but rather a Philidor.

Second, while it's a matter of taste, the queenless middlegame that is reached after 4.dxe5 doesn't appeal to me that much as white- I think that my advantage is minimal to nonexistent.

I thought you loved grinding endgames like Magnus Carlsen

blueemu
BronsteinPawn wrote:

c6-Kc7 and the king may be even better placed than a castled king.

This. After c7-c6 and Kc7, Black's King is perfectly safe, and is centralized for the endgame. Why would you feel that it be better placed on g8?

teletolumby

I enjoy when white takes on 4. dxe5. 

Idrinkyourhealth2
teletolumby wrote:

I enjoy when white takes on 4. dxe5. 

Do you also like the blood and the murder ?

DrSpudnik

Most people are terrible at endgames. You can go down this road if you want.

ModestAndPolite

The related 1. e4  d6 2. d4 e5 3. dxe4 dxe4 4. Qxd8+ Kd8 is not a bad open ing to play when you start to build a proper opening repertoire.  There is not much to remember, it is basically sound, and it will give you experience of playing an ending or middle game without Queens that are one of the best forms of practice for improvement.

I think Roman Dzinzichashvilli recommends it in his repertoire for Black.

MrFahrenKnight

hmmm, some interesting observations.

i may explore this further. my instinct is to never accept that trade as black. leaving your king uncastled on an open file just doesn't sit right in my mind. especially with a full army less queen still on the board.

but i think i may need to reavaluate my chess in this regard.