Playing against the dutch defense

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X_PLAYER_J_X
aggressivesociopath wrote:
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

Wrathsss statement says the following.

I don't know where X_Player gets his stats but according to the chesstempo.com database on games rated 2200+, for his line:

4. Bg2  40.6%/37.4%/22%

Which shows white score is better.

 

 

 

 

Did you miss that these stats are better for Black? Scoring percent for White is 40.6 + (37.4/2) = 59.2% instead of 39.3 + (42.9/2) = 60.75. I trust you remember that White's wining percentage plus Black's winning percentage equals 100%.

I have to put this in the form of a question because the phrase "which shows white score is better" does not specify better then what, it is also missing a possessive.


Which shows white score is better.

^^^ The above statement was in comparision to black.

37.4/2 = 18.7

18.7 + 40.6 = 59.3%  chance for white to win or draw.

Black chance for a win or draw are

100 - 59.3% = 40.7%

Which shows white still scores better than black.

59.3% > 40.7%

With a 18.6% difference which I believe is very substantial.

Fromper

I think the main thing most people here are overlooking is the OP's playing strength. He's rated 1700 in live chess here on Chess.com. Being in the US, that probably means a USCF rating somewhere in the 1300-1600 range.

At that level, knowing the opening better than your opponent is probably worth about one or two pawns in the positional evaluation. That's why unsound gambits are playable at that level.

That's also probably why he's trying to avoid main lines that his opponent presumably knows like the back of his hand. Telling him which main line is best, without him having a month or two to seriously study a whole book on that line, is just asking him to walk into his opponent's preparation and lose.

As an "e6 against everything" player myself, who uses e6 before f5 to avoid the anti-Dutch lines while happily playing the French against 1.e4, or on the very rare occasion it comes up from 1. d4, let me tell you what line I hate most: the French Exchange. From your 1. d4 move order, that's 1. d4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 exd5.

Most French players agree on this. This is theoretically the most boring and least advantageous line for white to play against the French. Looking at master level statistics, white probably scores worse than in any other line of the French, with a whole ton of draws, and close to even win/loss ratio. But at lower levels, it just bugs French players who don't get to play their favorite French lines when this is pulled out. I've seen quite a few comments online from people who said they actually gave up the French just because they were sick of seeing the Exchange.

So if you just want to bug your opponent, this is the line I recommend.

ThrillerFan
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:


Speaking as a Dutch player myself...

Do you play the Dutch against 1c4 and if so how do you approach lines where white holds back on his d pawn, playing d3 ?

Not a huge fan of the Dutch against c4 and Nf3.  Have I played it?  Yes.  Might I again at some point?  Yes.  However, I think the Dutch really is a legit weapon against specifically 1.d4 because 1.d4 weakens e4.  1.c4 and 1.Nf3 do not.

ThrillerFan
Fromper wrote:

I think the main thing most people here are overlooking is the OP's playing strength. He's rated 1700 in live chess here on Chess.com. Being in the US, that probably means a USCF rating somewhere in the 1300-1600 range.

At that level, knowing the opening better than your opponent is probably worth about one or two pawns in the positional evaluation. That's why unsound gambits are playable at that level.

That's also probably why he's trying to avoid main lines that his opponent presumably knows like the back of his hand. Telling him which main line is best, without him having a month or two to seriously study a whole book on that line, is just asking him to walk into his opponent's preparation and lose.

As an "e6 against everything" player myself, who uses e6 before f5 to avoid the anti-Dutch lines while happily playing the French against 1.e4, or on the very rare occasion it comes up from 1. d4, let me tell you what line I hate most: the French Exchange. From your 1. d4 move order, that's 1. d4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 exd5.

Most French players agree on this. This is theoretically the most boring and least advantageous line for white to play against the French. Looking at master level statistics, white probably scores worse than in any other line of the French, with a whole ton of draws, and close to even win/loss ratio. But at lower levels, it just bugs French players who don't get to play their favorite French lines when this is pulled out. I've seen quite a few comments online from people who said they actually gave up the French just because they were sick of seeing the Exchange.

So if you just want to bug your opponent, this is the line I recommend.

The French Exchange is a joke.

Go to "The Week in Chess", go to their archive, download the games from the 9/1/2014 edition, search for McCartney (not sure if they put a space between the C's or not, so try both, one if the other doesn't work), and look for Round 5 of the US Open.

It starts off a Petroff, but after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d3 Nf6 6.d4 d5, you are in the exact same position as you are after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nf6, just with 2 extra moves played.

The line I played is one of the best for Black.  It looks like he's merely mimicking, but that's sheerly a coinceidence the first 12 moves or so.  Notice how White plays h3 to kick my Bishop, but I specifically avoid ever playing ...h6 so that I can contest White's Battery.  Once he played h3, he threw the Bg3 possibility right out the window (at least in the near future).

TwoMove

In this link can see Carlson's opinion about the "unplayable" dutch, in his game against the world number 2 of the time Caruna.  http://en.chessbase.com/post/shamkir-r3-carlsen-so-win.

Club player standard players making comments on what is playable on move 1 really is a load of rubbish.

 

Ziggy_Zugzwang
ThrillerFan wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:


Speaking as a Dutch player myself...

Do you play the Dutch against 1c4 and if so how do you approach lines where white holds back on his d pawn, playing d3 ?

Not a huge fan of the Dutch against c4 and Nf3.  Have I played it?  Yes.  Might I again at some point?  Yes.  However, I think the Dutch really is a legit weapon against specifically 1.d4 because 1.d4 weakens e4.  1.c4 and 1.Nf3 do not.

OK, thanks....

nuclearslurpee

As a Dutch player who has also played against it on occasion:

If you're not looking to play the "best theory", the best-known "anti-dutch" is a combination of Nc3 and Bg5 or vice versa, with the idea of playing something like e4 to weaken the f-pawn and/or kingside. An example might be: 1.d4 e6 2.Nc3 f5 3.e4, When you might play something like 4.exf5 (3...fxe4 4.Nxe4). I'm not sure it's the most *principled* approach, but it seems to be effective - especialy against people who play the Dutch only to "get off book" instead of with a particular goal in mind, or people who play the Stonewall because they want to completely close the position - such people might not take well if you open the position and introduce complications.

Another more "typical" line might be 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4 (obviously, Black has played badly, but this illustrates the idea). Now, a principled Dutch player might play 2...d5 and 3...g6 instead in the above line, but not too many people at this level seem to know those ideas.

I'm trying to suggest ideas rather than lines to memorize, based on what I've seen in games. Below is a recent example; my opponent played badly, but you can see the general idea of the e4 break being used to make him thoroughly uncomfortable.



TwoMove

I think it is fair enough for the OP to prepare e4, if opponent keeps aiming for the dutch with 1.d4 e6 2Nc3 f5 3e4 etc. If 2...d5 3e4 Bb4 4pxp might be a low theory french line the OP chould play. It's more interesting than a standard exchange line. Black is fine if knows what doing of course. 

In the game, black can play with more ideas too. For example 4...Bb4 fighting for control of e4. Then later b6, and bb7.

aggressivesociopath
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:
aggressivesociopath wrote:
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

Wrathsss statement says the following.

I don't know where X_Player gets his stats but according to the chesstempo.com database on games rated 2200+, for his line:

4. Bg2  40.6%/37.4%/22%

Which shows white score is better.

 

 

 

 

Did you miss that these stats are better for Black? Scoring percent for White is 40.6 + (37.4/2) = 59.2% instead of 39.3 + (42.9/2) = 60.75. I trust you remember that White's wining percentage plus Black's winning percentage equals 100%.

I have to put this in the form of a question because the phrase "which shows white score is better" does not specify better then what, it is also missing a possessive.


Which shows white score is better.

^^^ The above statement was in comparision to black.

37.4/2 = 18.7

18.7 + 40.6 = 59.3%  chance for white to win or draw.

Black chance for a win or draw are

100 - 59.3% = 40.7%

Which shows white still scores better than black.

59.3% > 40.7%

With a 18.6% difference which I believe is very substantial.

 

 

You are still missing the basic concept: scoring percentage is not the same thing as White's chances to win or draw. White's chance to win or draw is 78%. Black's chance to win or draw is 59.4%. You also failed to form a proper possessive twice in a row. Chess is one thing, but I can't image you getting an acceptable grade on a standardized test. You also appear to be untrainable — you make the same mistakes twice, and ignore that ThrillerFan's claim of being able to make 46% as Black is not equality. Do you not understand numbers or the conjunction "or?" I don't know why I bothered pointing any of this out, just trying to help.

X_PLAYER_J_X
aggressivesociopath wrote:

You are still missing the basic concept: scoring percentage is not the same thing as White's chances to win or draw. White's chance to win or draw is 78%. Black's chance to win or draw is 59.4%. You also failed to form a proper possessive twice in a row. Chess is one thing, but I can't image you getting an acceptable grade on a standardized test. You also appear to be untrainable — you make the same mistakes twice, and ignore that ThrillerFan's claim of being able to make 46% as Black is not equality. Do you not understand numbers or the conjunction "or?" I don't know why I bothered pointing any of this out, just trying to help.

My standardized testing score were very good. I got different offers from several different colleges. I even got recommendations from Military colleges including Annapolis.

I also had a scholarship.

I do have a degree so your assumptions about me are incorrect.

Do not confuse ramblings on a meaningless chess forum with important matters of real life.

I may fail in proper possessive's on this forum by your standards. However, Your failing grade does nothing to impact my life. Your labeling of me is of no importance.

The basic concept I am trying to get you to understand is.

It does not matter who's numbers you use mine, yours, or Thriller fans.

Whites score is higher than Blacks score every single time. An the difference is substantial.

If you want to show examples of Magnus Carlsen using the Dutch to beat Caruana Fabiano go for it.

Is it really a shock the Worlds number 1 beat the Worlds number 2?

I said the Dutch sucks becuase it has a bad score and it does have a bad score.

I never said the Dutch was unplayable.

I never said the Dutch was unsound.

You guys like to manipulate what I have said.

The Dutch has a bad score because it is a risky line which offers imbalances. Black banks on the fact he can get an attack. If Black can not than blacks position is simply filled with long term positional weakness which white can target.

It is a gamble-ish line.

The line I recommended for the OP to play was a positional line that targets the positional weaknesses black has in his position.

If you and thriller wish to continue to talk about how amazing the Dutch Defense is maybe you should create a forum in honor of the Dutch.

The OP has his title name below.

Playing against the dutch defense