Ponziani opening traps

And I don't care what you care and don't care about ponz ... please continue your chest thumping ... do you do a Tarzan yell too ? 

Some of the Ponz games I played today.

GAME #1 - BLUNDERS

GAME #2 - PONZIANI CENTER ADVANTAGE

GAME #3 - PONZIANI CENTER ADVANTAGE (type 2)

NM Reb, don't be a hater, man. The topic itself is focussed at Ponziani Traps and tactics. You wouldn't expect to find anything else here lol. I'm not a master so my opinion wouldn't matter much. But in my personal experience, I have found that Ponziani is a good line if white wants to go for quick attacks and immediate threats. With perfect play, black emerges slightly better (he steals the initiative) by move 10, but ... humans aren't computers, and it is not very likely that they would come up with perfect play for the quick threats by white in Ponz.

This opening is for those white players who want to go for immediate crushing attacks, instead of slow, steady development before going aggressive.

The Ponziani is interesting, but it's weird seeing it pitched for immediate crushing attacks from White in the same post as it's explained that Black has the initiative. It's possible that Black is only equal in the main lines but the initiative is a thing. Black has a lot of fun ways to use it, the sharp d5 stuff, the Fraser Defense (only mentioned in one post here and no games shown,) or the solid Nf6 where most of these trap games are coming from... The first trap line I posted was the old Bb5 variation; this natural move, developing a piece, which used to be prefered, was shown not to work; it's too ambitious, so White has to play the Queen out early instead, an admission that the opening has not been a success for the first player, and people still pitch it on the grounds that White is not worse. Now people are praising the attacking potential of the early Queen move... why don't they just post Parham Attack miniatures if they want to play like that? Well now I'm joining the haters, and really I think the Ponziani is very interesting opening.

I would like to see some more traps from the Black side in this thread, however, and not simply Black going for the boring line and misplaying it because they don't know the theory at all over and over. Let's see a Caro White underestimates the initiative and Black has a checkmate. Let's see some games with the crazy Fraser line where one inaccuracy costs *White* the game. I'm all for White wins in those lines too; it seems they're being under represented here.

tmkroll  I have played many Ponziani games against masters and have a big plus score. I do not agree that after 10 moves that Black starts to gain the initiative. I do not agree with that at all.

I have won many Ponziani game by just grinding Black down after the opening.

I have never lost a game vs the caro and do not remember even one game [am talking slow games here] that Black drew.

This particular forum/topic is for opening traps only, so you do not see my Ponziani games where I won with the Caro or Fraser or other defenses which were not quick knockouts.

I could give slow games [mostly correspondence games before chess engines] where I won by mostly positional means but then you know what would happen. [reb would deludge me with his werewolf posters etc.]

It is rare that Black will score a quick knock out against the Ponziani.

To be clear, my opinion is after 3 moves Black gets the iniative. I also was not only asking for your games. I bet you don't fall for traps in this opening.

I strongly disagree but that makes chess. I can only remember one really devious trap I fell into and Black got a draw. It was in the 7th USA Correspondence Championship where I scored 2 wins, 1 draw [that game] and no losses with the Ponziani. 

#1. Nobody said that black has the initiative from the start. I wrote that IN MY RANKING LEVEL, if black plays perfectly for 10 moves, they end up stealing the initiative and putting me on the defensive. And of course, players with better ranking than me can hold on to the initiative till the end. You might want to view one of Magnus Carlsen's games against an Indian grandmaster where Carlsen began with the Ponziani and kept the initiative till the end of the game. Harikrishna (Indian GM) was playing black and he played the line perfectly from black's side as far as the opening lines go. Yet he was never able to steal the initiative. Here is the game if you want to view it.

#2- There is not the LEAST hint that Qa4 is an admission that the opening wasn't a success for white. It is a very powerful move by white, considering that there is NO WAY black can easily chase that queen away or force white into getting defensive. I have played that line myself many times and I've found myself to be on the better side of the board after the dust settles.

#3- Ponziani doesn't risk any material or position (from white's side). Even with perfect play by black, they only manage to fend off white and save their skin, unless white misplays and loses initiative (which I often end up doing). It's not hope-chess, if you are implying it. It is a solid attacking opening by white and it offers near-infinite ways to black to hurt himself. If white misplays a move, he loses the initiative. If black misplays a move, he's immediately crushed. Does this sound like a risky, hope-chess opening to you?

Pikay, thanks for the game by Magnus!  

Pikay, that's Qa4 ins't even played in that game. That's the other line.

Ponz, I still don't understand that point of view of strongly disagreeing with what seems obvious to most of the rest of the world. I believe I asked you this before and you said I should buy your book.

In a normal opening after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 White continues with moves that make threats extending the iniative of the first move. After 3. c3 when the engines suddenly go for + some fraction of a pawn to 0 or - some fraction of a pawn, Black has two good ways sieze the chance and counter attack against the center. This attack to which White must respond is Black siezing the initiative. When Black can sac a whole piece and not lose the game (Fraser variation,) obviously Black has the iniative. Do we have different definitions of the word "initiave?"

In the Caro or the Fraser you could argue Black's iniative is not enough for the material. Maybe in the f6 line you can argue it's not enough to compensate for the structural weakness, but just strongly disagreeing that it's there at all doesn't make a lot of sense. When Black plays d5 in the Ruy or another line do you say the 2nd player is grabbing the iniative there?

Chess Engines are not very good in the early opening.  As I said, I have played the Ponziani against many masters and have a strong positive score. And no, Black did not seize the initiative and that is one of the reasons all those masters lost to me.

The Fraser is by far the most complicated variation of the Ponziani. In slow chess [such as correspondence chess with no engines] I have only wins against it. However the Fraser can be very complicated and if White knows the correct lines, it is Black who has to tread very carefully for more than 20 moves to avoid defeat.

In practical play you will not find players who know the Fraser well enough to avoid defeat against someone like me who not only knows the best theory but has participated in making the theory.

Do you really think that Black is going to spend hours and days of his time to find the best variations for Black in the Fraser to try and avoid defeat? What usually happens in that variation is Black slips up and loses when it has been played against me.

A booked up Ponziani player will usually kill the Fraser.

I forgot to mention...This is for any serious Ponziani players who wish to know about the most recent lines of the Ponziani Opening...

Just contact me by message if you are interested in joining the

"Ponziani Analysis" group.  We give some of the latest theory on the Ponziani with a lot of never seen before analysis.

Shows how to play the Fraser or the Caro or any other variation of the Ponziani. 

most members of the group are strong enough to contribute some theory to the Ponziani Opening but this is not a requirement.

No matter how much subjective BS you come up with ponz the simple FACT is that the caro line does much better for black in actual OTB practice and you can check any OTB database you like . I have checked 3 already and all 3 confirm this .  Here is a game that Nakamura lost to a weaker player in the Ponziani and the black player even played the 3.... f5 line which I have seen you berate as inferior . Ofcourse now you will start telling us how Nakamura doesnt really know how to play the Ponziani ...... 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1461885

Reb  if you think the line played by Nakamura with this line:

Reb,  I challenge you to play a game against me.  I will play the Ponziani and you can play the line played against Nakamura which started as in the diagram above.

Let's see how you can do playing the line which supposedly beat Nakamura...

I have never played the line as black , besides that playing online too many people use engines so I dont accept such challenges for obvious reasons . I do thnk 3 ...f5 is inferior to both 3... Nf6 and d5  though .  

Come on Reb, accept my challenge! Do not make excuses. You can use an engine and any data bases you have. This would give you some advantage as I do not even have any opening data bases.

You opened your big mouth!  Come on --- play me!  If someone can beat Nakamura with the line you touted--surely you can beat me! 

I would be glad to play you face to face ponz and I would crush you like a bug and I would let you choose the openings ...  However.... online there are too many cheaters to suit me. Do you have an ICC account ?  Wait ... you dont like fast chess though .... 

Come on Reb, you have a big mouth, Accept my challenge right here on chess.com. It would be an unrated game with chess engines allowed.

Come on Reb, stop making excuses!  You can use a chess engine, so there is no cheating if we both use a chess engine.

You have a big mouth!  Accept my challenge!!! 

Why use engines ? Play me on ICC and we can play 5 0 or 10 0 ... cant play live here due to lack of time stamp/seal .. 

You're the one always boasting about your games ponz ... so its you who have the big mouth/ego .... not me . I will play you on ICC , just let me know when ....