Ponziani Opening

Why I think there will not be a refutation to the Ponziani that holds up.

To me, with best play for both sides--chess is a draw. To lose a game you have to make a mistake--this is key in my thinking.

I have studied the Ponziani for years and wrote two books on the Ponziani.

[one co-authored with Keith Hayward]

There are, of course, millions of lines, but, so far, I have been able to

come up with the normal first move advantage in all lines I have investigated. [and of course in some lines much more]

The Ponziani gives reasonable moves as a starter.  I do not think anyone who understands the Ponziani can say the whole opening is a mistake. 

Thus the Ponziani cannot be refuted.  That is per my sense of logic. Why should it be when White really has not made a mistake.  Also, why should it be refuted by either one or two lines when thousands of lines "work" for this opening"

Now in real life, I noticed the two possible refutations to the Ponziani even before the possible refuttions came out. So I HAD to have a response--there HAD to be a good reply to these two refutations--maybe even something no one has looked at before!

As in my favorite TV show of all time.."We will go where no one has gone before" 

If one of these lines comes up in Vote chess--it will be tested.  I have had one of the lines come up in my 15 minute games as I won that particular game. [my 15 minute play is not so good at all]  

I keep thinking of this senario--someone knows how to counter the 2 refutations and is playing correspondence chess and he plays the Ponz and his opponent goes for one of the refutations as after all " stastics show the Ponziani is a losing opening".  Almost wish I was able to play correspondence again--just for that senario!

looking on 365chess.com at this line, it does not even recommend the Nge7 move, likely because Black does not get a good target at e4 with this move.

Believe it or not, Black's replies from this position in post #214 shows the following replies:

4... f6, 4...Bd7, 4... dxe4, 4... Qd6, 4... Nf6, 4... Qd7 and 4... a6 in order of most frequently played irrespective of winning percentages for either side. Of the 7 replies, only 4... a6 leaves book lines at this point with Hlavcek-Pecina 0-1 where Black has a Rook for 2 pawns at the end of the game.

The 4... f6 line goes:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. Bb5 Nge7 6. exd5 Qxd5 

and now White has 2 replies to take here: 7. d4 and 7. 0-0 (this is listed as the Steinitz variation at this point).

Looking at 7. d4 first, we get:

7. d4 Bd7 8. Be3 exd4 9. cxd4 Ne5 10. Nc3 Nxf3 11. gxf3 Qf5 12. O-O-O a6 13. d5

And here both moves, 13... Bxb5 and 13... 0-0-0 show as losing for Black

Looking at 7. 0-0 our line is:

7. O-O Bd7 8. d4 e4 9. Nfd2 f5 10. Bc4 Qd6 11. Qc2 Nd5

and whether White plays 12. Re1 or 12. Nb3, he is still holding all the trumps.

Of interest to note is that on move 10, if White plays 10. Na3, the game was won by Black but if White plays instead 10. Nb3, you get a winning position from one of Alekhine's games here.

Ponz does have some interesting ideas to look over here but with 7 moves available by move 4 for Black in this line, there appear to be plenty of ways to go wrong here for the defender. Will check some more lines here and at chesslab.com and see how the two DB's compare on this line.

Asa it turns out most data bases on the Ponziani are not so reliable because they do not take into account lines I have dreamed up which are not in the data  bases. 

Data bases are valuable and have their place but in some cases are not the last word...

Perhaps 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. Bb5 Ne7 6. exd5 Qxd5 7. d4 e4! is black's best try, even though it is less played. White seems to have some difficulties after 8. c4 Qd8 9.Nfd2 Kf7!?, as is shown by IM pfren.

I think Black gets an even worse game if instead of 9... Kf7!? he simply tries to punish the Knight move with 9... Qxd4. Now White has two choices to play. He can either hit at the Queen with 10. Nb3, which to me seems inferior to 10. 0-0, when his structure is solidified and forces Black into either 10... Bd7 or 10. a6, both of which lose in light of that White has more space and active piece play here. 9.... Kf7!? is very interesting to view in this opening as this takes pressure off the a5-e8 diagonal. Black should be able to at least achieve some equality, especially if he can come out of the ensuing exchanges with a decent position.

i would have to agree there as several games I have entered into, including some minor piece sacrifices for up to 3 pawns, do not register in their games archives. Still, as a stepping stone, they are better than nothing, especially if one as little time to read tomes of information on particular openings.

Actually after 3. c3  d5 4. Qa4  f6  5. Bb5  Ne7  6. exd5   Qxd5

7. d4  e4  8. c4   Qd8  9. Nfd2   Kf7  IM pfren is showing how Black has the advantage after a follow up and I do not disagree with him on this.

BUT Ponziani LIVES because I have studied this whole line and have something better somewhere in this line and am satisfied that Black gets no advantage at all.  The line with 9. ... Kf7  is one of the recent tries for a refutation of the Ponziani  [if it can be shown that Black gets the better game and White has no other resourse--then it would just about kill the Ponziani]

Maybe someone in vote chess will try and spring this line on our Ponziani Power team? 

In normal openings it`s Black who has to prove that White has no advantage.  In Ponziani it`s White who has to fight for equality if Black knows what to do, as we can see from this discussion.

Igor Lysyj analyses this in his recent Black repertoire book as equal, white having slightly more active pieces and Black the long-term advantage of the bishop pair. To be honest, I do not care for long lines on practical OTB play (correspondence is a different beast), and my prefernece is the modern Nf6 variation: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 cd4! 5.e5 Nd5. Now I don't believe in 6.Qb3 (I think white has trouble equalizing fully) so 6.cd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d6 9.Bb5 0-0 is the most critical line. IMO Black has a great game- he should not care at all about the Bxc6 non-threat, and play actively on the white squares with something like ...Bf5 and ...Nf4. Black has an excellent game without the need to know any long lines. Objectively this is also equal, but I guess that such a way to play the white pieces would only appeal to Anand...

Pacifique, what you just said is pure garbage. You do not have the slightest clue about the Ponziani. You have not given one line to refute the Ponziani and I doubt if you could even give an equalizing line.

Where did i claim refutation of Ponziani? Your analphabetism does not surprise me anymore. So far you failed to demonstrate advantage for White after:

1) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 (your garbage analysis and their refutations in this thread shows that it`s easy for White to get into trouble in this line);

2) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4.d4 cd4 5.e5 Nd5;

3) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6;

4) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Nb8.

Your baseless "blah blah blah" on how good is Ponziani has zero value.

pfren, you may notice in our recent vote chess games we chose the 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4  cxd4  5. e5  Nd5 6. cxd4 line rather than the 6. Qb3 line.

Regarding the line with 9. ...Kf7 as given by Lysyj I do not like the line at all for White and have an alternative. [something that either avoids the whole line or something to improve the line so so that White has the normal opening move advantage.]

I wish more would play into what I call the chapter 1 main line of the Ponziani with 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  Nf6  4. d4  Nxe4

5. d5  Ne7  6. Nxe5  Ng6 as I really like White's chances.  

Pacifique White has a very nice game after 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  Nf6 

4. d4  Nxe4  5. d5  Nb8 and if you cannot see this--what can I say?  Most players master and above can plainly see White has both a space and time advantage. And the follow up lines as per Play the Ponziani often come out quite well for White.

By the way it is from about midnight to 5 AM when I made my posts and that is because I rarely sleep but what about some of you responding--insomiacs or maybe live in a differt time zone?

I should inform you that chess has made some progress since Dr. Tarrasch, who would evaluate this position exactly like you do, without bothering  to figure out how White can exploit this "nice game" after 6.Nxe5 Qe7 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Be2 c5! 9.dxc6 Nxc6 10.Nxc6 dxc6 or 6.Bd3 Nc5 7.Nxe5 d6 8.Nf3 Nxd3+ 9.Qxd3 0-0. 

Pacifique in your line you are  making White move 8. Be2? but that is not the correct line for White.

8.Be3 c5! 9.dxc6 Nxc6 10.Nxc6 dxc6 11.Bc4 (11.Be2 transposes into 8.Be2 line) Be6 12.Nd2 Nd5

Be6 is slightly illegal, I guess you meant 10...dc6.

Even in that case, your line isn't totally convincing. I would prefer 10...bc6, I am sure that Black has adequate play, no matter what engines say after a casual glance.

And still, I see no point Black playing this. He has much better continuations to play against the Ponziani.

Corrected. 10...bxc6 seems to be good alternative too. This line was given to show that there are several playable responses to Ponziani, allowing Black to have a good position.

Do you really think Black has equalized?