Ponziani Opening

Loek, I skimmed the 1st game, and there appear to be piece losing errorsin the analysis.  For example 23... c6 win a piece for black (I think).

The Ponziani can have some very difficult variations. The sequence

1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  d5  4. Bb5? was played for hundreds of years until just in the past 10 or so years it was found to be a losing move.

23...c6 24.Kc3 seems to hold the piece, black cannot play 24...Ba5+ 25.Kxb2 Bxe1 26.Nf4+ Kh6 27.Rxe1

At first it looks like 25...Rxe6 wins a piece but white has 26.Nf4+ and comes with a rook up

I am not sure if 26.Reb1 was a good plan (maybe Re4 intending something like Rg4+ Kh6 Nf4)

Sorry, new to the thread and this has probably been covered, but what's the current verdict on the 3...d5 4.Qa4 line?  I generally play that way in blitz as Black and seem to get "fun" positions, but am unsure if the compensation for the pawn is theoretically enough.

There are several variations Black can play after 3. ...d5  4. Qa4 most are fine for White.  The variation which gives White the most trouble/problems is 3.  ...  d5  4. Qa4  f6    and this whole variation is being tested now.

I am testing one of the lines after 4. Qa4  f6 but there are several which need testing.

It is pretty well impossible to play either side of 3. ...d4 4. Qa4 unless you have a little book knowledge.

Possible Black replies after 3. ...d4  4. Qa4 include

4. ...Nf6

4. ... f6

4. .... Bd7

4. ...  dxe4?!

4. ...  Qd6 

Each line with its own theory...

Thanks for the roadmap, perhaps I'll investigate some of this later

Ponz111 wrote

ponz111  

for Loek Bergman

[Event "Blitz:3'"]

[Site "Denver Chess"]

[Date "2013.06.20"]

[Round "4"]

[White "Matthew Miller"]

[Black "Brian Wall"]

[Result "0-1"]

[ECO "B01"]

[WhiteElo "2150"]

[BlackElo "2264"]

[PlyCount "27"]

[TimeControl "180"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 Nxe4 5. d5 Bc5 6. dxc6 Bxf2+

7. Ke2 Bb6 8. Qd5 Nf2 9. cxb7 Bxb7 10. Qxb7 Nxh1 11. Be3 O-O 12. Bxb6 axb6 13. g3 e4 14. Nd4

Matthew Miller - Brian Wall, Blitz:3' Denver Chess

r2q1rk1/1Qpp1ppp/1p6/8/3Np3/2P3P1/PP2K2P/RN3B1n b - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit:

1. -+  (-2.94): 14...Qf6 15.Nd2 Qf2+ 16.Kd1 Qxh2 17.Nxe4 Qxb2 18.Rc1 Nf2+ 19.Nxf2 Qxf2 20.Qg2 Rxa2 21.Qxf2 Rxf2 22.Ke1 Rh2 

2. -+  (-2.10): 14...Qg5 15.Qxc7 Qh5+ 16.g4 Qxg4+ 17.Kd2 e3+ 18.Kc2 Nf2 19.Be2 Qg6+ 20.Kb3 Ne4 21.a3 Nc5+ 22.Ka2 Nd3 

3. -+  (-2.06): 14...d5 15.Bg2 Qg5 16.Nd2 Qh5+ 

4. -+  (-1.86): 14...Ra5 15.Nd2 Rh5 16.Bh3 Nxg3+ 17.hxg3 Rxh3 18.Nf1 Rh5 19.Re1 Re8 20.Kd1 c5 

5. -+  (-1.78): 14...Re8 15.Kd1 Qf6 16.Be2 Qe5 17.Bc4 

6. -+  (-1.75): 14...Rb8 15.Qd5 Qf6[] 16.Nd2 Qf2+[] 17.Kd1 e3 18.Be2 exd2 19.Kxd2 Rbe8[] 20.Rxh1 Qe3+ 21.Kc2 Re5 22.Qf3 c5 23.Qxe3 Rxe3 24.Kd2 

7. -+  (-1.67): 14...c5 15.Nf5 Qg5 16.Qd5 Qh5+ 17.Ke1 Kh8 18.Qe5 f6 19.Qf4 

8. -+  (-1.67): 14...c6 15.Kd1 Qf6 16.Be2 

9. =/+  (-0.63): 14...f5 15.Nd2 Qg5 16.Kd1 Nf2+ 17.Kc2 c5 18.Nb5 Qh6 19.h4 

10. =/+  (-0.59): 14...Ra4 15.Nd2 Qf6 16.Qxe4 c5 17.Qxh1 Re8+ 

11. =  (-0.14): 14...Qe8 15.Qxc7 f5 16.Kd2 e3+ 17.Kc2 

12. =  (0.18): 14...Nxg3+ 15.hxg3[] Qg5 16.Kf2 Rfe8 17.Ne2 Qf5+ 18.Kg1 Qb5 19.b4 

(Wall, Denver Chess 11.07.2013)

lol

@Kantifields: what you see is a copy of the games Brian published in this thread. I focused on the opening and looked at games most of the times not further then move 20. The importance of a game for the opening does not reach much further, because after that there are too many lines for continuation. Please some of those moves for granted. I can tell you that I am just as puzzled as you are. When you see his games, then you see also results and an explanation why the game ended. I removed them to indicate that I am not interested in this part of the game. It is about the opening.

In the actual game made black a mistake at move 18. I gave a sideline, which cancels the blunder of black. The validity of that game ends at 20. .. Kh8 in the sideline. 21. Rg1 might not be the best move for white, I added that move to show that black can hold its position and will win the bishop.

Same applies to 23. .. c6. In that game ends opening theory imo after move 18. Rxb2. 19. Bh3 is a choice, other moves could be made as well.

@BrianWall: I already made the conclusion that the line with the queen at b7 is not good for white. His queen is too far from the centre and that is what really matters in this position, because white has a vulnerable king in this position. The black queen going to f2 is very strong indeed.

At move 13 should white play Qd5 in my opinion and next Nbd2. He lacks pawns in the centre, so he needs pieces in the centre to protect his king.

If white does not play 13. Qd5 but g3 instead, then would I advise black to play 13. .. d5! I think that is game over for white.

After 13. Qd5 e4 14. Nd4 Qf6 15. Qf5 is the threat of black entering at f2 gone.

but after 13. Qd5 e4 14. Nd4 Qh4 15. Qf5 g6 16. g3 Nxg3+ 17. hxg3 Qxg3 has black four pawns for the knight plus an unsafe white king.

I am glad to see that the move I saw for black is considered good. :-)

I was also puzzling how white can get out of troubles. I looked at the situation again and thought that Bxb6 is not a good move. White can play Kf3 and Bd4, but after playing Bxb6 he gives the rook on a8 to enter the game quickly. White should avoid that. He has to deal with the threat Re8, hence he has only two moves as an alternative for Bxb6. He should play one of those I guess. Precise evaluation is required to find out if white can hold the position.

I think it would be a great idea to have an unrated Centaur tourney with all games on the Fraser Defense as IM pfren.

Right now there is a Ponziani Centaur tournament on the Ponziani but not limited.  I will see if my friend will try and set up such a tourney.

I may be wrong but am guessing Mr. Wall not up on the latest theory with Bb5 after 4. ...f6   And I am not so sure that Black is quite fine after the d3 variation. 

I think both these lines will be tested in the future.

Here are the lines in the Ponziani that I think need a lot more investigation:

The whole Fraser Variation [hopefully we can set up an unrated tournament]

`1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  d5  4. Qa4  f6  5. d3

1. e4  e5  Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  d5  $. Qa4  f6  5. Bb5  Ne7

6. exd5   Qxd5   7. d4    [7. 0-0? loses]

After 7. d4  these  possible moves

7. ...  e4

7. ...  a6

7. ...  Bg4

[A friend is helping me with 7. ... a6 now]  

he has an improvement which houdini seems to accept - as much as i hate "non-disclosure agreements", i won't give anything (yet), i guess. :<

Interesting. I am surprised about that, because I see it as good for white that he can force into an endgame in which he might have the advantage of an active king.

Can you show us what Houdini (or you) consider good moves in this position and why Bg5 is a blunder?

In the resulting endgame will black try to get a rook on f5 before white can capture the knight. If he succeeds, then will black win. If white can get the knight on h1, then has white advantage.

Looking with fresh eyes I thought 9. Nxe5 is a good move. Mate on f7 is at least something. Two options: Qe7 or 0-0. It turns out that 9... 0-0 is already that good, that Qe7 does not need a research.

So, I am very curious what is the best move for white in that position.

The 2nd branch in that line makes some sense. The first branch does not.

[7. d4  a6]