Ponziani Opening

There is a lot of trash talk about the Ponziani and how it is such a bad opening and thus someone who plays the Ponziani is "wasting a White"

I have a partial response in this little "poem" I made up last night with a game to follow which is relevant to the "poem"

There once was a fellow named Dave

Who many declared was a knave

There were many naysayers

Regarding this chess player

cause he played the Ponziani

But his chess turned out to be uncanny

He declared he loved a good fight

So with the Ponziani he would smite

As he played chess into the night

He promoted a pawn into a knight

to all Ponziani lovers delight

His opponents would often whine

But finally they had to resign

I'm delighted your chess is so much better than your poetic abilities. :-)

my take on the ending:

His opponents would strut, bluff,

Wheedle and whine, and in the end,

would always have to resign.

I am also delighted my chess is so much better than my poetic abilities!

After 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  Nf6  4. d4  d5 

white should play 5. Bb5 [pages 136-141 Play the Ponziani]

ponz111, I have the following issue with your line.

A very similar position is reached after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4. However, in this position, White has an extra tempo as the Bishop only moved once from f1 to b5, but also White has played c2-c3, a move of questionable value.

Do you think this position is better for White than the standard position from the line of the Two Knights Defense with the pawn on c2? I think I would rather have the pawn on c2 but that's just me.

One reason it is better to have the pawn on c3 rather than c2 is with

the pawn on c3 there are lines where White can play Qb3 effectively.

Also the pawn on c3 gives some support to the knight on d4. Just to give one example [taken at random]

I forgot to mention that having the pawn on c3 supporting the knight makes it a little easier for White to do the standard attack of f4  f5  f6 etc. Of course their are pros and cons about the extra move but I think the pros outweigh the cons. 

"The only real reason that anyone would bother plaing the Ponziani, is hoping that black will play d5 after which sharp play ensues (although black is the one playing for the advantage) There is no point in White's third move unless Black plays badly." Frank Marshall  1904

This is part of the garbage written by some gm's regarding the Ponziani. His statement, in itself, is not very consistent.  Why would a player hope for a d5 response if he would then be playing not to lose?

The truth is that in 1904 there was very little theory about the Ponziani and thus Frank Marshall had no clue as to how good or bad is/was the Ponziani.

I have seen other high masters point to a certain possible position in the Ponziani and claim the position is somehow typical of this opening and then to state the position is boring with virtually no chances for anything other than a draw for both sides.  However, this is NOT true. Even the position they give--there are very clear winning chances for White, assuming White knows what he is doing.

Here is the line they speak of:

even th

Repeating the same crap & claiming equal positions "better" does not make Ponziani better.

I did not say the Ponziani was "better" then any other sound opening.

I am saying it is a viable opening and underestimated by many.

I am also saying it is quite playable up to the 2500 level.

And the position above cited by many as a "dead draw"  is a position where White has definite winning chances. 

ponz, I've been looking into the ponziani some and cannot find an advantage in the following line. Any advice?

Hi, shepi13.  In answer to your question--I have been studying the various lines after 4. Qa4  f6  and now do not advise anyone to play 7. 0-0.  Instead play  7. d4  and after that there are many possiblities for both sides and I am furiously studying many continuations... The book, I co authored with Keith Hayward will have a lot of revisions [if it is ever printed again]  in the chapter [very long chapter]

dealing with the 3. c3  d5 4. Qa4  f6 variation.

Very useful advice. :D

Does really white's position appeal to you after 7.d4?

Personally I find it quite unpleasant.

White managed to draw this, but around move 15 or so his position is not appealing at all (say if Black played 15...Be6 instead of winning the pawn, after which white has enough counterplay).

Hi pfren, You are citing one of the refutations to the Ponziani in recent books. In answer to your question: "No, that position and that line does not appeal to me".

But please know when I discovered that 7. 0-0 was very probably a bad line for White and when I noticed other published refutations of the Ponziani starting with 3. c3  d5  4. Qa4  f6  5.Bb5  Nge7 6. exd5  Qxd5

7. d4  --I spent some long hours trying to improve various Ponziani lines after 4. ...f6. 

I cannot say for 100% certainty that my endeavors were successful but

at this point--I think I have answers to the line you gave and also another "refutation".  As someone who tries to be objective I could say the fate of the Ponziani may hang on my new ideas which, so far,

I have given to only one other person.  [in case my health problems become worse--I have a ton of new lines for the Ponziani]

There is a very large chapter on 4. ... f6 in my coauthored  book--half of it will have to be undone--the half having to do with 7. 0-0 . [by the way on the vote chess game-I had a "senior moment" and lead my team astray]

The 1/2 chapter with 7. d4 will need to be revisted and changed per my very recent studies.

If there is a line which refutes the Ponziani, of course, I will be unhappy but chess is chess and very hard. As of today, I am satisfied with my very new responses to the 4. ...f6 line.

Byt the way I am not saying this is good but here is an unusual variation. I have not studied completely but seems to end in a draw by perpetual motion but as I said there may be a refutation to this...

Juszt to give one continuation [and there may probably  be a refutation]

If Ponziani is ever refuted will have to change my name to PONZED

or does anyone have a better name if and when the Ponziani is refuted?

Thanks will considered that one if and when the Ponziani is refuted!

While d3 may give a playable position, I am still going with Bb5 because of my new analysis.  There have been 1 or 2 sources recently giving how

Black can equalize vs d3. 

So that is one reason why I am trying to "rehabilitate" the Bb5 move in this variation.