Problems defending vs 6. Ng5 in the Ruy Lopez

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ThePeanutFish

I have spent the last hours trying to come up with a good defence to whites attack, and so far I haven't gotten anywhere. I have tried d5, and after e4xd5, Nxd3 instantly loses to Nxf7. After e4xd5 Nd4 d6 Nxb3 d6xc7 Qxc7 seems to leave white with a pawn up. I have tried playing with countless other variations, but black always gets stomped. 

Up until 6. Ng5 the game seems to be a common book posistion and haven't even been able to find a game online with 6. Ng5, so what am I missing and why is it not considered the best move instead of the common 6. O-O?

ChessOath
ThePeanutFish wrote:I have spent the last hours trying to come up with a good defence to whites attack, and so far I haven't gotten anywhere. I have tried d5, and after e4xd5, Nxd3 instantly loses to Nxf7. After e4xd5 Nd4 d6 Nxb3 d6xc7 Qxc7 seems to leave white with a pawn up.

Up until 6. Ng5 the game seems to be a common book posistion and haven't even been able to find a game online with 6. Ng5, so what am I missing and why is it not considered the best move instead of the common 6. O-O?

The line you give leaves Black with a fantastic position. Clearly better... I haven't even wasted my time putting it into an engine, I don't need to.

You're also 100% wrong about this being a book position. Why are you playing b5 so early? You don't have a reason and this is not the correct move order. If nothing else, it allows White to avoid the Marshall without having to avoid the 8.c3 line, by transposition.

ThePeanutFish

To Chessoath: I believe it is a book position, it is played in the first video when you search Ruy Lopez on youtube https://youtu.be/41rPFNY_CAY?t=438

To pfren: But won't white still win if he plays 8. d6 instead of 8.d3?

ThePeanutFish

Lasker, how is black fine with 8. d6 Nxb3 9. dxc7 Qxc7 ? He is a pawn down

Strangemover

How have you reached this position? It looks like you must have played b5 before Nf6 to get here so play Nf6 first and then no problem.



IamNoMaster

brah dont play b5 after Ba4... play Nf6 instead and u wont have problems.

BuddyT313

Didn't check it except in my head but in the 1...d5 2.exd5 Nd4 3.d6 Nxb3 4.dxc7 line you give, instead of 4...Qxc7 you can try 4...Qd5, hitting g2 while your b3-Knight threatens to take on a1. For example, 5.axb3 Qxg2 hits both the rook on h1 and the knight on g5. Or, if White tries to cover g2 with something like 5.Qf3 (5.Nf3 Nxa1 or 5.0-0 Nxa1) Qxf3 6.Nxf3 Nxa1 looks good for Black. In either case, Black will eventually round up that pawn on c7. White might have still some tricks though (particularly after 5.0-0 Nxa1 6.Re1) so be sure to check it out thoroughly.

IamNoMaster

what about some early a4 after this early b5 stuff, brah?

IamNoMaster

i wanna make use of this premature b5 move and not transpose into mainlines pls

Hadron
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ThePeanutFish

To strangemover: I played 4. Ba4 b4

To pfren and Lasker: I guess I can see where you guys are coming from with white being behind in development, still though I find it weird that I didn't find the move covered anywhere, white is still a pawn up and (to me) it seems playable, although you guys are probably right and black is actually stronger. 

 

Thanks for the help, just glad I found that move myself and that it may actually be somewhat decent for bullet games, I was certain I had made a blunder somewhere.

BuddyT313

Of course, none of this addresses your fundamental misconception that being a pawn dawn is automatically losing. As GM Khachiyan says, chess is a game of squares, not of material. In the opening & middlegame (and even in a lot of endgames )development, space, and piece placement often compensates or outweighs a meterial deficit. As you become more experienced at chess, you'll begin to understand this better.

chesskingdreamer
Here's some analysis on 4...b5!?. It's not as bad as it looks and white's best option is probably to transpose back into main lines.
 
Note: pfren is almost always right in whatever he says (I have yet to find a place where his analysis is wrong) so you might as well trust him.
 
thomasmorato

I would consider playing a different variation if you aren't liking what you're ending up with. This variation (called neo-archangelesk) delays b5 opting for development instead.

Nckchrls

If you like the 4...b5 line maybe look into the 5...Na5 continuation as noted by IM chessking.

The sharp play can offer Black winning chances, especially in blitz and against the unprepared. Of course it needs some study and offers white plenty of good play. But his play isn't easily intuitive and needs to be relatively active.

If white dithers and black can develop the kside, it can be a game. Either way, it offers a sharp though maybe not totally sound option to the usually closed maneuvering Ruy lines.

thomasmorato
pfren wrote:
braindeadguy wrote:

I would consider playing a different variation if you aren't liking what you're ending up with. This variation (called neo-archangelesk) delays b5 opting for development instead.

 

Actually 5...Bc5 is the Moeller defense, which is a close relative to the Neo-Archangelsk/ Yurtaev/ Tkachiev/ call-it-as-you-like-it, and which goes 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5. there are a few not-so-cosmetic differences between them, but they do have several common variations.

Should get chess.com to fix their opening explorer then. this is what popped up when I played Bc5: 

Ruy Lopez Opening: Morphy Defense, Neo-Arkhangelsk Variation

Fireline11
I clicked on the video you watched. And what I was afraid of turned out to be true. A video from thechesswebsite. Thechesswebsite is NOT a good source for openings... It's actually just not a good channel. You can't be blamed because it has so many views and the video's aren't very long so it's very tempting to watch them if you don't know how bad they are.

There are many bad youtube video's about chess. But they usually don't have many views. Thechesswebsite unfortunately does and I'm sorry to say that I also contributed to this a little bit. Luckily there are also many good video's on youtube! I recommend instead typing in 'dereque kelley ruy lopez'. I can guarantee you that he will not give you any false information and he seems like a really nice person. If you watch dereque's video about the ruy lopez you will probably understand the ruy lopez a little better.
ChessOath

Oh dear, thechesswebsite? Is it Kevin? His name? I've not watched one of them for years because I think the guy is retarded. I remember watching one of his videos with a database open and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that it said close to the opposite of him on every single move.

Fireline11
Haha after 1e4...e62. d4...d5 3.e5...c5 he thinks 4c3 is a bad move and recommends Nf3 ;p everyone can make mistakes but I think he should not be making those video's if he doesn't know the moves, let alone the ideas.