Problems defending vs 6. Ng5 in the Ruy Lopez

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Avatar of ThePeanutFish

I have spent the last hours trying to come up with a good defence to whites attack, and so far I haven't gotten anywhere. I have tried d5, and after e4xd5, Nxd3 instantly loses to Nxf7. After e4xd5 Nd4 d6 Nxb3 d6xc7 Qxc7 seems to leave white with a pawn up. I have tried playing with countless other variations, but black always gets stomped. 

Up until 6. Ng5 the game seems to be a common book posistion and haven't even been able to find a game online with 6. Ng5, so what am I missing and why is it not considered the best move instead of the common 6. O-O?

Avatar of ChessOath
ThePeanutFish wrote:I have spent the last hours trying to come up with a good defence to whites attack, and so far I haven't gotten anywhere. I have tried d5, and after e4xd5, Nxd3 instantly loses to Nxf7. After e4xd5 Nd4 d6 Nxb3 d6xc7 Qxc7 seems to leave white with a pawn up.

Up until 6. Ng5 the game seems to be a common book posistion and haven't even been able to find a game online with 6. Ng5, so what am I missing and why is it not considered the best move instead of the common 6. O-O?

The line you give leaves Black with a fantastic position. Clearly better... I haven't even wasted my time putting it into an engine, I don't need to.

You're also 100% wrong about this being a book position. Why are you playing b5 so early? You don't have a reason and this is not the correct move order. If nothing else, it allows White to avoid the Marshall without having to avoid the 8.c3 line, by transposition.

Avatar of pfren
Avatar of ThePeanutFish

To Chessoath: I believe it is a book position, it is played in the first video when you search Ruy Lopez on youtube https://youtu.be/41rPFNY_CAY?t=438

To pfren: But won't white still win if he plays 8. d6 instead of 8.d3?

Avatar of ThePeanutFish

Lasker, how is black fine with 8. d6 Nxb3 9. dxc7 Qxc7 ? He is a pawn down

Avatar of pfren
ThePeanutFish wrote:

To pfren: But won't white still win if he plays 8. d6 instead of 8.d3?

No. Actually 8.d6 is a lemon. After 8...Nxb3 followed by ...Bxd6 or even ...Bb7 white will be way behind in development- I would really start been worried about his health.

Lasker 1900: 9...Qd5 (in place of 9...Qc7) looks much stronger: Black will grab the g2 pawn, and that one on c7 won't go away.

Avatar of Strangemover

How have you reached this position? It looks like you must have played b5 before Nf6 to get here so play Nf6 first and then no problem.



Avatar of IamNoMaster

brah dont play b5 after Ba4... play Nf6 instead and u wont have problems.

Avatar of BuddyT313

Didn't check it except in my head but in the 1...d5 2.exd5 Nd4 3.d6 Nxb3 4.dxc7 line you give, instead of 4...Qxc7 you can try 4...Qd5, hitting g2 while your b3-Knight threatens to take on a1. For example, 5.axb3 Qxg2 hits both the rook on h1 and the knight on g5. Or, if White tries to cover g2 with something like 5.Qf3 (5.Nf3 Nxa1 or 5.0-0 Nxa1) Qxf3 6.Nxf3 Nxa1 looks good for Black. In either case, Black will eventually round up that pawn on c7. White might have still some tricks though (particularly after 5.0-0 Nxa1 6.Re1) so be sure to check it out thoroughly.

Avatar of pfren
IamNoMaster wrote:

brah dont play b5 after Ba4... play Nf6 instead and u wont have problems.

4...b5 is a tad provocative, but not bad at all. Actually white's best may be 5.0-0 transposing to mainlines after 4...Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 etc.

Avatar of IamNoMaster

what about some early a4 after this early b5 stuff, brah?

Avatar of IamNoMaster

i wanna make use of this premature b5 move and not transpose into mainlines pls

Avatar of Hadron
[COMMENT DELETED]
Avatar of ThePeanutFish

To strangemover: I played 4. Ba4 b4

To pfren and Lasker: I guess I can see where you guys are coming from with white being behind in development, still though I find it weird that I didn't find the move covered anywhere, white is still a pawn up and (to me) it seems playable, although you guys are probably right and black is actually stronger. 

 

Thanks for the help, just glad I found that move myself and that it may actually be somewhat decent for bullet games, I was certain I had made a blunder somewhere.

Avatar of BuddyT313

Of course, none of this addresses your fundamental misconception that being a pawn dawn is automatically losing. As GM Khachiyan says, chess is a game of squares, not of material. In the opening & middlegame (and even in a lot of endgames )development, space, and piece placement often compensates or outweighs a meterial deficit. As you become more experienced at chess, you'll begin to understand this better.

Avatar of chesskingdreamer
Here's some analysis on 4...b5!?. It's not as bad as it looks and white's best option is probably to transpose back into main lines.
 
Note: pfren is almost always right in whatever he says (I have yet to find a place where his analysis is wrong) so you might as well trust him.
 
Avatar of thomasmorato

I would consider playing a different variation if you aren't liking what you're ending up with. This variation (called neo-archangelesk) delays b5 opting for development instead.

Avatar of Nckchrls

If you like the 4...b5 line maybe look into the 5...Na5 continuation as noted by IM chessking.

The sharp play can offer Black winning chances, especially in blitz and against the unprepared. Of course it needs some study and offers white plenty of good play. But his play isn't easily intuitive and needs to be relatively active.

If white dithers and black can develop the kside, it can be a game. Either way, it offers a sharp though maybe not totally sound option to the usually closed maneuvering Ruy lines.

Avatar of pfren
braindeadguy wrote:

I would consider playing a different variation if you aren't liking what you're ending up with. This variation (called neo-archangelesk) delays b5 opting for development instead.

Actually 5...Bc5 is the Moeller defense, which is a close relative to the Neo-Archangelsk/ Yurtaev/ Tkachiev/ call-it-as-you-like-it, and which goes 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5. Τhere are a few not-so-cosmetic differences between them, but they do have several common variations.

Avatar of thomasmorato
pfren wrote:
braindeadguy wrote:

I would consider playing a different variation if you aren't liking what you're ending up with. This variation (called neo-archangelesk) delays b5 opting for development instead.

 

Actually 5...Bc5 is the Moeller defense, which is a close relative to the Neo-Archangelsk/ Yurtaev/ Tkachiev/ call-it-as-you-like-it, and which goes 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5. there are a few not-so-cosmetic differences between them, but they do have several common variations.

Should get chess.com to fix their opening explorer then. this is what popped up when I played Bc5: 

Ruy Lopez Opening: Morphy Defense, Neo-Arkhangelsk Variation