Question about white opening advantage

If white's first move is agreed to be fixed. (e.g. he must play 1. e4), then does white still have the traditional "opening advantage'? Or is white's opening advantage due mainly to the fact that black does not know what white's first move is going to be?

Just something that puzzles me. What is the source of white's opening advantage?

The source is having an extra move.

What do you mean?

White's advantage isn't only that white mostly chooses the opening - which is really important-, but also in most openings white has the initiative. About the first move now, if the first move is agreed to be fixed,it is like black has the first move. It's like the position without any move is something like this...

 Again, black has to answer on white's set up, but he hasn't to face close set ups (after 1.d4) or unusual set ups (example: 1.b3 1.b4 1.g3) .

BTW, if the first move is agreed to be fixed, the game would have been boring

So if the first move is agreed to be fixed, then it is black that has the "opening advantage" because black can now dictate the play. (It is like black now has the first move.)

Sorry, this is genuinely puzzling me. The usual explanation given for white's opening advantage is that white can dictate the play.

How is White's first move fixed? 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 are all equally good moves, and also things like 1. g3 can be played. I don't see White's first move being "fixed".

There are basically three types of advantage one may have in a chess game: Positional, material, and temporal.

Material is obvious -- if one side has more pieces, or more powerful pieces (depending on position, of course), this may be a significant advantage. In the opening, material is equal, so this does not apply.

Positional is almost equally obvious in many cases -- the pieces one player has are better posted for attack and defense than the opponent's. In the beginning of the opening, this is not demonstrably the case.

This leaves temporal -- often referred to as having the initiative. This is white's "advantage" at the beginning. White moves, black must react to white's move. Since the position prior to white's first move is dead equal, this advantage of time is minimal. Black must seek to, at the very least, maintain equality, and ultimately try to achieve some advantage -- temporal (gaining the initiative), positional, or material. This is not always accomplished, but as temporal advantage is frequently the most difficult to maintain, black can often neutralize the advantage of first move.

It is agreed by both sides that white must play 1. e4.

The same still applies. The number of variables has been reduced.

Yes thanks for this thoughtful reply. It at least answers my initial question. So the opening advantage has nothing to do with Black's being in the dark as to which opening White is going to play (and so having divided attention, as it were). There is really something tangible there about white moving first.

Yes, but not a great deal.

In (at least) one of his videos, Roman Dzindzichashvili makes the point that Black chooses the opening.

Consider your premise that 1. e4 is mandatory. What is the opening? White may be aiming for the Ruy Lopez or Giuoco Piano. Black can choose to avoid these and steer things into other lines, such as the Sicilian, French, Caro-Kann, etc.

White may have the choice of which variation of Black's opening to play. Then again, he may not. For example, 1. e4 e6, 2. d4 d5, 3. Nd2 dxe4.

This may be: 1. e4 (I want to play Ruy Lopez.) e6 (Tough, we're playing a French Defense.) 2. d4 (Okay. I'm game.) d5 (Good.)  3. Nd2 (Let's play a Tarrasch Variation.) dxe4 (Nope. I don't like the Tarrasch. We're playing a Rubinstein Variation.) 

Yes exactly. The alleged "advantage" for white always seemed to me a little dubious if explained in terms of how white gets to "dictate the play". I wondered if the advantage was purely psychological? But then you convinced me that, no, the advantage was tangible (if small)! But now you have convinced me otherwise! Lol. 

But you gotta remember, that in most of openings White holds a slight advantage and no matter what defence Black chooses, he usually have to make some concessions.

in this case, it would be white again who has the advantage, the only difference is that the game would be much more limiting and boring (because of pre-determined opening move)

btw guys, this was posted 1 and a half year ago...

Depends on what the fixed move is.

The advantage of "choice" is merely psychological.  From an "objective" standpoint, meaning you take two Grandmaster level players that are equally capable of playing any opening, White has the advantage in the vast majority of cases.

After 1.d4, White scores roughly 56% in most databases of GM games.  The fact that 1.d4 is "forced" upon somebody, and that 1.d4 may not match a player's "style" does not change the fact that theoretically, White still has the advantage after 1.d4

After 1.e4, White scores roughly 54%.  Again, same deal as 1.d4.  Theoretically, White has the advantage.  Personally, you may not like 1.e4, and so while it may impact you negatively, it doesn't change the fact that White is still just as much better after 1.e4 as he is in the starting position.  Overall, White scores 54% at the GM Level across millions upon millions of games.

After moves like 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, which tend to score about 52%, White still has the advantage.

The worst move on the board amongst those that are statistically relevant in databases (i.e. meaning a sufficient number of games played to make the stats mean something, which as a rule of thumb, usually means minimum of 30 as that's considered a valid sample size in statistics - less than 30 is unreliable) is 1.f4, which scores about 46% for White.

So if White is "forced" to play 1.f4, Black is better, but if he is "forced" to play something like 1.e4 or 1.d4, White is still better from a theoretical standpoint (meaning "objectively", White is better).

When determining advantage, take all personal factors out of the equation.  That's what's confusing you is you are factoring in the "personal" bias into pure statistics, which is a no-no!

I think the " advantage " of playing white is higher at the elite level and the further down the rating list you go the more that " advantage " shrinks .  I have had tournies in which I have scored better with black than with white and tournies in which I have done better with white , which makes me wonder how much of an advantage does white really have ?  I think the person who serves in tennis has a much larger advantage than the chess player who has white . 

Again, you are taking personal, mental aspect into the picture.

White's advantage is the same after 1.e4 if White is 2860 and Black is 2865 as it is if White is 1200 and Black is 1800.

Theoretically, in both cases, White may be say, +0.23.  However, what one is capable of doing with that advantage differs, and a 1200-rated beginner is going to make one mistake after another while the 2860 will maybe the 2865 suffer to the fullest possible extent.

You can not possibly put the same position on 2 boards, sit a 1400 player as White on board 1, a 1900 player as Black on board 1, a 2300 player as White on board 2, and a 1700 player as Black on board 2, and sit there and tell me that Black's position is better on board 1 while White's position is better on board 2 at the same time.

You could predict that Black will win on board 1 and that White will win on board 2, but if the position is exactly the same on both boards, the "advantage" can not be on opposite sides - a physical impossibility.

Having the "advantage" in chess is not the same thing as being the "favorite" to win a game.

White still has the traditional advantage even if 1.e4 is fixed because it is a fact and rule of the game that white does have the first move. There is no way for black to directly counteract about this objective fact. 

As for whether black has any advantage knowing that white always play 1.e4 is debatable. Black is obviously better prepared, but I am not sure how much that helps since 1.e4 opening theory is enormous by itself and white can get into a huge amount of different lines and styles. In theory if white is fixed on 1.e4 actually white also has the same type of "advantage" in that white only has to prepare for e4.

An analogy is lets say you are playing basketball with a friend of about equal skill (this is important) and you are defending (objective fact). Your friend tells you "My move involves starting off with a step to my right" (thats basically all 1.e4 tells you). How much do you think that helps? Your friend can do a lot after that and you don't quite know what the move is (there are various degrees of that, from no idea to have a good idea), and your friend has practiced this move a lot as he wants it to be good.

The same question can be expanded to things like "what if 1. e4 c5 is forced?" or even "what if white or black always play the same line against a particular opening?". As long as the line is sound and you can't refute it I don't see a significant benefit.