Why would white play 7. dxc5?
Question on French Defense Advance Variation with 6...Qb6
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Is 5...Bd7 a thing? I've always thought 5...Qb6 was more mainstream.
6...Qb6 makes sense because White played 6.Bd3 blocking his own influence on d4 pawn. White should have played 6.Be2
7.dxc5 is antipositional for White, and Black wants white to play that.
Comp wants to win a pawn after 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4.Remember, computers can defend against craziest positions that humans can't. IMO it is hard to defend the gambit with Black, and I would rather go for bishop pair with 7...Nb4 in this line.
Apr 27, 2016
0
#4
newbie_learner wrote:
Dear fellow chess.com users
Recently, I'm picking up on the French Defense. The line goes
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 Qb6
Computer opines the alternative, 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 to be better for Black, than 6...Qb6 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.0-0
From a simple tempo point of view, I thought 7.dxc5 Bxc5 helps Black to improve? I don't fully understand the idea behind, and would like to seek some advice.
Thanks in advance.
7.dxc5 would be because the d4 pawn is being attacked 3 times (c5, nc6, qb6) but only defended 2 times (nf3, c3). So 7.dxc5 is essentially forced—assuming white doesn't want to lose that pawn.
This is why 6.Be2 is more commonly played—it allows white's queen to help guard d4.
I am going to assume that OP is asking why the 7.dxc5 Milner-Barry (defined by 6.Bd3) scores so well for White, even though it looks dubious.
I'm no expert in this line (don't play with either color) but after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 Bd7 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. O-O a5 (to stop eventual b4) 9. a4 (eyeing b5) Nge7 10. Na3 Ng6 11. Qe2, Black tried so many moves but only 11...0-0 scores well for Black
Apr 28, 2016
0
#7
As mentoned prior, 6.Be2 is better than 6.Bd3. After 6.Bd3, you are pretty much committed to the Milner-Barry Gambit, which isn't very good.
After 5...Bd7, 6.Be2 is best.
After 5...Qb6, 6.a3 is best (6.Be2 leads to dead equality).
Thanks for the advice, everyone!
It is still strange (to me) that computer (I run stockfish 7 on my gaming laptop) assesses 6...Qb6 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.0-0to be better for White by around +0.3. I think the explanation of 8. O-O a5 (to stop eventual b4) 9. a4 (eyeing b5) is what the computer assessment is about. The b5 suqare can be exploited by White, and it'll be difficult for Black to challenge this square.
It's still a bit hard for me to digest, but I believe I will, slowly, since I decided to pick up the French defense.
I hope the forum will still welcome more queries from me in time to come. Thanks again for sharing your advice!
Is not the main line of the advanced French 5...Qb6 6 a3 and only now 6... Bd7, f6 or c4?
mecuelgalapieza wrote:
Is not the main line of the advanced French 5...Qb6 6 a3 and only now 6... Bd7, f6 or c4?
See also FrenchDefender's earlier reply to Oraoradeki. ...Bd7 is played most of the time anyway. If we omit the immediate 5...Qb6, we likely won't see White playing a3, and would be able to force White reveal his intentions. (6.a3 is a specific response against 5...Qb6, from what others say.)
The wiki page seems to have mentioned this as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Defence#Advance_Variation:_3.e5)
"5... Bd7 was mentioned by Greco as early as 1620, and was revived and popularised by Viktor Korchnoi in the 1970s. Now a main line, the idea behind the move is that since Black usually plays ...Bd7 sooner or later, he plays it right away and waits for White to show his hand. If White plays 6.a3 in response, modern theory says that Black equalises or is better after 6...f6! The lines are complex, but the main point is that a3 is a wasted move if the black queen is not on b6 and so Black uses the extra tempo to attack the white centre immediately."
Hope this helps. Would also be happy to hear different views and advice on this. Thank you.
May 3, 2016
0
#11
That's the strangest reason I've seen, for playing Qb6, you want to discourge white from playing the classic beginner move Bb5?! This seen to be poor in countless games in these forums, goodness knows what they find so attractive with the move.
In the Euwe line with 5...Bd7, black will sometimes never play Qb6. For example can go for a good step with 6a3 c4 with Qc7 which is tempo's up on equilvalent Qb6 line.
newbie_learner escribió:
mecuelgalapieza wrote:
Is not the main line of the advanced French 5...Qb6 6 a3 and only now 6... Bd7, f6 or c4?
See also FrenchDefender's earlier reply to Oraoradeki. ...Bd7 is played most of the time anyway. If we omit the immediate 5...Qb6, we likely won't see White playing a3, and would be able to force White reveal his intentions. (6.a3 is a specific response against 5...Qb6, from what others say.)
The wiki page seems to have mentioned this as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Defence#Advance_Variation:_3.e5)
"5... Bd7 was mentioned by Greco as early as 1620, and was revived and popularised by Viktor Korchnoi in the 1970s. Now a main line, the idea behind the move is that since Black usually plays ...Bd7 sooner or later, he plays it right away and waits for White to show his hand. If White plays 6.a3 in response, modern theory says that Black equalises or is better after 6...f6! The lines are complex, but the main point is that a3 is a wasted move if the black queen is not on b6 and so Black uses the extra tempo to attack the white centre immediately."
Hope this helps. Would also be happy to hear different views and advice on this. Thank you.
It makes a lot of sense, thanks for your explanation.
May 4, 2016
0
#13
In the 5...Qb6 6a3 c4 line black usually needs to play Na5 to discourage b3/b4 break. Then later Qb6-c7, to allow ne7-c8-b6, and bd7-a4. This is still playable for black, but in the equilvant 5...bd7 line black can play Qc7 directly saving tempos so the position is a lot more comfortable for him.
So 6a3 isn't a problem versus 5...bd7. Instead 6be2 is thought to be more dangerous because black can't pressure d4 so quickly with bd7 instead of Qb6.
Some of the people on the first page are incorrect!
7.dxc5 is considered the best move for white.
White plays 7.dxc5 to use the d4 square.
White has positional threats!
White is trying to target the d4 square as an outpost square for his pieces.
At first glance black looks safe.
Black has the queen on b6 + knight on c6 + bishop on c5 all hitting d4.
However, it is an optical illusion!
White has a sneaky plan to remove those pieces!
White's plan is to play the move b4.
The move b4 would hit the bishop on c5 driving it away from c5!
After the bishop on c5 moves white can try to follow up later on with Be3 hitting the queen on b6.
White will try to systematically remove the black defenders.
Which is why players playing black have started playing the move a5!
The move a5 prevents the pawn move b4 from white which drives away the bishop!
It is a minor set back, but white is still very cunning!
White players has several different follow ups:
I think 2 follow ups fit in with the d4 plan very nicely!
- One follow up is with a4 + Na3 in this follow up white can try to hop the knight to c2 which will allow white to hit d4 + defend e3 square.
White can try to set up a trade of bishops on e3 with the help of the knight on c2
- The other follow up which I think is sweet is with Nbd2 with the idea of moving the knight to b3!
Once the knight goes to b3 what is it doing?
It is hitting the bishop on c5 again!
White will try to remove the bishop on c5 even if he has to trade it off!
White wants to bishop on c5 to move or to get traded off!
The reason why is because the dark bishop black has is a key defender to the dark square.
White is trying to fight for the d4 square which is a dark square.
For all of these reasons 7.dxc5 is a very powerful move.
If I was you I wouldn't allow this to happen.
You can get completely crushed by a well prepared white player!
Actually I remember having a huge debate about this in the following forum:
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/is-this-an-appropriate-f6-break
If you look at the position in that forum and look at your position you will see you that you both transpose into the exact same position.
At move 7 it is white to move and they can play dxc5!
I honestly think it is better to play the way the computer is suggesting
6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6
After the above set of moves you will transpose into the mainline of the Milner-Barry Gambit.
If you need help learning the Milner-Barry Gambit you can read the below post:
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/short-game-what-was-wrong
The 9. Nbd2 gambit seems interesting until you realize that the distinct lack of high-level games in it is the only reason it scores well. If black returns the knight to c6 and follows with Nge7-g6, rerouting the queen to c7 (or even b8 if necessary), white will be unable to reasonably guard the e5-pawn, and he shouldn't have sufficient compensation for that loss.
dpnorman wrote:
The 9. Nbd2 gambit seems interesting until you realize that the distinct lack of high-level games in it is the only reason it scores well. If black returns the knight to c6 and follows with Nge7-g6, rerouting the queen to c7 (or even b8 if necessary), white will be unable to reasonably guard the e5-pawn, and he shouldn't have sufficient compensation for that loss.
The sad part is I have never seen anyone play it.
I bet it would be a fun gambit line to try out at least once.
For example 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bd7 8. 0-0 Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Nc6 10. Nb3 Nge7 11. Be3 Qc7 12. Rc1 (the only way I have seen white play in this line) Ng6 13. Nc5 Bxc5 14. Bxc5 Ngxe5 and black is up two pawns for some compensation but not realistically enough. Even the scary-looking 15. Nxe5 Nxe5 16. Bf8 is no big problem for black after 16...Bc6 17. Bxg7 Rg8 and white has nothing better than 18. Bxe5 Qxe5 19. b3, leaving black a pawn up without any big problems. 19. Bxh7 Rh8 20. Re1 Qxb2 is also no issue for black, who can even play Ke7 and use the h and g-files for his rooks.
Of course, I couldn't find many games where black played like this because most games in this line are not played at a terribly high level. Needless to say, I'd love to see Misa Pap or Alisa Melekhina's "improvement", although I'm not sure there is one.
And the mainline Milner-Barry after 9. Nxd4 is completely toothless. Black can choose between practically forcing a draw by repetition if he wants (10...Qxe5 11. Re1 Qd6 12. Nb5 Qb6 and the usual Be3 Qa5 Bd2 Qb6 stuff, which white more or less must go for since he is in trouble otherwise) or play 10...a6 with the frequent plan Ne7-c6-b4 and a great position.
Oraoradeki wrote:
Is 5...Bd7 a thing? I've always thought 5...Qb6 was more mainstream.
6...Qb6 makes sense because White played 6.Bd3 blocking his own influence on d4 pawn. White should have played 6.Be2
7.dxc5 is antipositional for White, and Black wants white to play that.
Comp wants to win a pawn after 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4.Remember, computers can defend against craziest positions that humans can't. IMO it is hard to defend the gambit with Black, and I would rather go for bishop pair with 7...Nb4 in this line.
Korchnoi popularized ...Bd7
Dear fellow chess.com users
Recently, I'm picking up on the French Defense. The line goes
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 Qb6
Computer opines the alternative, 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 to be better for Black, than 6...Qb6 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.0-0
From a simple tempo point of view, I thought 7.dxc5 Bxc5 helps Black to improve? I don't fully understand the idea behind, and would like to seek some advice.
Thanks in advance.