Fischer never played the dragon.
Refuting the Dragon
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Carlsen brought an idea back to life a while ago - 12... a6!? preparing b5. I'm too lazy to post analysis, but the idea has led to interesting games at the highest level and is clearly stronger than the old 12... Nc4.
Yeah, typically ...Rfc8 as opposed to ...Rac8 in the Dragon has either the point of putting the other rook on b8, as you pointed out, and also avoiding these Nd5 tricks (after Kb1, where White can meet ....Qxd2 with Nxe7+) because ...Kf8 will be possible, and often both.
Oct 24, 2013
0
#26
doduobird123 wrote:
Qa5 is a horrible line Scott...
When analyzing post the best lines for both players, not the worst line for black, and the best line for white.
12. Kb1 is not a forced win, there is something called the Chinese Dragon...
Better fix your sarcasm detector.
The Chinese Dragon was around during Fischer's time too, there are recorded games with it from the 1970's.
I think the Yugoslav attack's reputation is partly because it's easier for black to mess up, and very demanding for us black dragon players to learn all the opening theory. All white needs to learn is one line of the Yugoslav, we have to learn them all. It's worth the effort though, a lot of people play sloppy Yugoslav attacks as white because they can get away with it if black doesn't know what they're doing, so if you learn the theory you can get an advantage against most people.
One poster on here recently said "I don't know why beginners like the Dragon, even the positions said to be favorable still seem hard". I think this is true that some do seem hard, like one line in the 9. 0-0-0 where white accepts the d5 pawn sacrifice, then grabs the rook in the corner and ends up trading off the queen for two rooks. After this opening theory ends, the position is such that white is up a pawn and has two rooks for the queen. However, the more you look at it, the more it starts to seem like black has an advantage. I played this position against Stockfish 8, and there's an instant draw there almost right after the opening theory ends with a perpetual check against the white king. It's not a forced perpetual, but Stockfish moves back and forth anyway so it ends up a draw.
What's the Dragondorf?
I read somewhere that if you play the dragon you shouldnt play a6, but maybe its ok then. I will look for this. thanks
claridad93 wrote:
I read somewhere that if you play the dragon you shouldnt play a6, but maybe its ok then. I will look for this. thanks
Normally, in the Dragon proper, when Black castles on move 7, since White's "sack-sack-mate" attack is coming really quickly down the h-file, the plan of ...a6, ...b5 is usually just too slow. However, the point in the Dragondorf is that Black delays castling, meaning that a quick h4-h5 will often be aimed at nothing, so he has more time to go for "Najdorf-esque" ideas like ...a6 + ...b5, ...Nbd7-b6-c4, ...Qc7, etc.
Mainline_Novelty escribió:
claridad93 wrote:
I read somewhere that if you play the dragon you shouldnt play a6, but maybe its ok then. I will look for this. thanks
Normally, in the Dragon proper, when Black castles on move 7, since White's "sack-sack-mate" attack is coming really quickly down the h-file, the plan of ...a6, ...b5 is usually just too slow. However, the point in the Dragondorf is that Black delays castling, meaning that a quick h4-h5 will often be aimed at nothing, so he has more time to go for "Najdorf-esque" ideas like ...a6 + ...b5, ...Nbd7-b6-c4, ...Qc7, etc.
So I have to stay in the center for a while and try to play in the Queenside. Maybe I will give it a try. thanks
Oct 25, 2013
0
#33
I-eat-guini-pigs wrote:
Bxe6 wrote:
I've done it!!! I've finally refuted the Sodium attack!
wtf is the sodium attack?
It's 1. Na3 (Na is the elemental abbreviation for Sodium)
lol
Oct 26, 2013
0
#35
doduobird123 wrote:
There is no sac-sac-mate - Fischer himself played the Dragon, Najdorf and Dragondorf. He is basically contradicting himself.
Firstly, I'm not sure how that would constitute a contradiction. It's no contradiction to declare an opening refuted and then play it anyway - in fact, he famously did this with the King's Gambit. It's a surprise perhaps, but not a contradiction.
Secondly...
There are no games recorded (assuming ChessGames.com didn't forget some of his games) in which he played the Dragon directly.
I can't find any in which he plays the Dragon by transposition, but I'm not much of a Fischer fan so perhaps I just don't know where to look.
He did play against it sometimes, and he also clocked up a few losses against it too.
Dragon is refuted
Fixing_A_Hole wrote:
D_for_DJ wrote:
Dragon is refuted
lol
Yes the Dragon is weak. Why does anyone want to deal with such a weak d5 square and at best a cramped major piece endgame where black's only real source of counterplay is the c-file (or overextended kingside pawns for a Kg7 to punch out with an ...h6 advance)? Maybe even settle for an opposite color bishop or lightsquared bishop ending if he's lucky!
Like Fischer said he has it down to a science; sac, sac, mate babeh! Woot! ^_^ *dances* Uh-huh, you know it! :D
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:
Yes the Dragon is weak. Why does anyone want to deal with such a weak d5 square and at best a cramped major piece endgame where black's only real source of counterplay is the c-file (or overextended kingside pawns for a Kg7 to punch out with an ...h6 advance)? Maybe even settle for an opposite color bishop or lightsquared bishop ending if he's lucky!
Like Fischer said he has it down to a science; sac, sac, mate babeh! Woot! ^_^ *dances* Uh-huh, you know it! :D
Not sure if sarcasm..
i am looking for a fellow chess.com player to help me refute the dragon once and for all. I have houndi 3.0 with 26 cores and 32gb ram and a data base with over 4,000,000 games. Any one down?
I'm nowhere near in the same league as you, but I've always found the Yugoslav Attack to be a very effective weapon against the Dragon. As to whether the Dragon can be refuted or not, I doubt it; but in a game with 2 equally good players, it can be matched I believe. That being said, I think the Najdorf is a more sound defense as it's more effective at preventing early checking opportunities compared to the Dragon.