Refuting the Dragon

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pfren

15...Bxf6 is the right move in that line (Topalov variation).



2000mushroom

Just the title is sad

2000mushroom
D_for_DJ wrote:

The dragon is so easy to refute. Heres another line refuted. 

 



Just because someone playing the dragon lost doesn't means it's refuted.

TheGreatOogieBoogie

Maybe not refuted per se but why play the dragon when the Najdorf and Paulsen are superior?  

TheOldReb
chessmicky wrote:

When you're through "refuting" the Dragon, could you take a few moments to prove Fermat's last theorem and tell us the location of the Lost Dutchman gold mine?

I know nothing about that theorem thingy but have it on good authority that the lost dutchman mine is in the FL Everglades .  Surprised

ChessPatzer987
petrosianpupil wrote:

Refuting a mainline opening played regularly today by superGMs?? Gotta love the ambition of some people.

I'd be happy to get a slight advantage against much weaker openings. All the lines mentioned seem to play Bc4, I don't see that d5 square as that critical and committing the bishop seems to be a bit cowardly. Why not g4 and decide on the bishops job once black has decided his approach? Dragon players have a number of different ways to counterattack, qa5 Bd7 even Be6 line Nakamura plays. B pawn pushes and often sacs a pawn pushes, Ne5 , h5, re routing the f6 knight. As the dragon is often a white kingside vs a black queenside,

Isn't g4 a more critical test? Nunn has great success with just whacking down the kingside h pawn hack attack style. Anyone explain why Bc4 better? Stats don't seem to back it up.

Exactly!

pfren
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Maybe not refuted per se but why play the dragon when the Najdorf and Paulsen are superior?  

And your definition of superiority is... ?

ChessPatzer987
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Maybe not refuted per se but why play the dragon when the Najdorf and Paulsen are superior?  

Popularity and superiority are two different things. Don't confuse them.

TheGreatOogieBoogie
pfren wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Maybe not refuted per se but why play the dragon when the Najdorf and Paulsen are superior?  

And your definition of superiority is... ?

In the Paulsen it seems much harder for black to go wrong than in the Dragon.  There's a reason why Chess Stars made the Paulsen the subject of the Safest Sicilian.  The e6 pawn also covers d5 nicely and prepares a ...d5 thrust.  Even in bind positions can be prepared.  The Najdorf is superior because in the dragon black's d5 square is too weak while ...e6 in the dragon is oftentimes not viable due to weakening d6 too much.  

In short black has fewer strategic problems in the Najdorf and Paulsen while white has a harder time against them while white has a relatively simple attackng plan of pry open the h-file and sac, sac mate against the dragon.  

TheGreatOogieBoogie

There's some good stuff with the Paulsen.  One can set up a Hedgehog formation, capture away from the center in some cases (dxc6!) to contest a completely open d-file, play waiting moves and allow white to loosen himself, and has good transposition potential too.  

Agreed that 2...e6 isn't nearly as popular as it logically should be, probably due to Fischer and Kasparov's great successes with the Najdorf overshadowing it, though Kasparov still has some Paulsen games.  

samuelhaupt

the dragon has no refutation and if it has you won't find it because even magnus Carlsen gas used it with success against very strong players. computers might find.something in a hundred years, but right now there is.no refutation it's a perfectly playable opening

TheGreatOogieBoogie

It has no refutation but black seems to be putting all his eggs in one basket (the c-file) and other options seem safer, more flexible, and with more options.  On the long diagonal the bishop doesn't cover the d6 square and e7 can become backwards and weak if white times a Marco Hop correctly.  

Jimmy720
chessmicky wrote:

When you're through "refuting" the Dragon, could you take a few moments to prove Fermat's last theorem and tell us the location of the Lost Dutchman gold mine?

Fermat's Last Theorem was proven before I was even born...

The_Almighty_J
chessmicky wrote:

When you're through "refuting" the Dragon, could you take a few moments to prove Fermat's last theorem and tell us the location of the Lost Dutchman gold mine?

From one fellow Dragon player/fanatic to another...  You are proving his point as both of those "impossible" examples have been done.  So stop.  The Dragon is my life.  In a nutshell, I would smoke it if I could...

D_for_DJ

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D_for_DJ
D_for_DJ
Spectator94

I am a Dragon player and I'd only like it if it would be labeled ''unsound'' because then most White players probably won't be as prepared anymore. I, surprisingly, don't agree about it being unsound. White's attack seems easy to play, but Black often makes use of very thematic moves. The amount of theory required is way less than for example the KID. People who say that as soon as they got out of theory they soon collapsed are people who either just memorized the moves without focussing on the themes or people who weren't ready for the Dragon yet.
Also, the lines on the verge of refutation are mostly lines involving Rxc3. That's not the only way for Black to play. 

Spectator94

Petrosianpupil that exact position won't occur. Nobody plays 9... Bd7 in response to 9... g4

Spectator94

Then he's not a worthy Dragon opponent