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'Refuting The Winawer'

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Avatar of Painterroy
Painterroy
Jun 14, 2009
0
#21

I don't think you can use Fischer as a basis of whether any opening is good or bad since he pretty much beat everyone.

Avatar of Golbat
Golbat
Jun 14, 2009
0
#22
rob9258 wrote:

Fischer consistently played 3.Nc3 because he believed the Winawer is antipositional; Black puts his central pawns on white squares and then trades off his black-squared bishop. The poisoned pawn variation attempts to take advantage of that quickly. Smyslov used it fairly often, particularly in his world championship games against Botvinnik. I suggest you study those games. 

That's very interesting, and I agree with the antipositional nature of the Winawer. I personally love to play the poisoned pawn variation as White, but Black normally chooses to castle instead, and a blocked game ensues.

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Jun 15, 2009
0
#23
rob9258 wrote:

Fischer consistently played 3.Nc3 because he believed the Winawer is antipositional; Black puts his central pawns on white squares and then trades off his black-squared bishop. The poisoned pawn variation attempts to take advantage of that quickly. Smyslov used it fairly often, particularly in his world championship games against Botvinnik. I suggest you study those games. 

Fischer and I are very much in the same boat when it comes to the Winawer (our opening repertoires are (were?) rather similar).  I also agree that the line is anti-positional.  On top of that I also believe that the poisoned pawn lines (7.Qg4 Qc7) are flat out dubious.  Simultaneously, I believe that it is all but impossible to prove any of that OTB and that home preparation is key for that line.  Even with this preparation, black has some options where he leaves pretty much nothing in the way of weaknesses and (as with most French lines) if white has a 'theoretical edge' there is certainly little in the way of practical demonstration.

Great line though, found some interesting resources looking through superGM games.

Avatar of ericmittens
ericmittens
Jun 15, 2009
0
#24

Well, if you want to avoid studying so much mainline winawer (who doesn't?) and feel like playing fischer-style why not try the 7.a4 line?

Avatar of erikido23
erikido23
Jun 15, 2009
0
#25

winawer exchange....

 

(1) Sandu,Mi (2325) - Foisor,M (2088) [C01]
IX EICC w Plovdiv BUL (1), 21.04.2008

 

 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nge7 8.Qf3 8...0-0 9.Ne2 Be6 10.0-0 Qd7 11.h311...Na5?! 12.Ng3 c5?!  13.dxc5! Qc6 14.Nh5! f6 15.Re1!? 15...Ng6 16.Be3  16...Rae8 17.Qg3 Bf7 18.Bd4 Nc4 19.f4!  19...Qc7 20.Qg4 Rxe1+ 21.Rxe1 Be8 22.Nxf6+? 22...gxf6 23.f5 Qg7  24.fxg6 Bxg6 25.Bf5 Bf7 26.Qxg7+ Kxg7 27.Re7  27...Na5 28.Be6 Kg6 29.Bg4 Re8 30.Rd7 Bg8 31.Rd6 Rf8 32.Bf3 Nc4 33.Rd7 Na5 34.Be2 Re8 35.Bd3+ f5 36.Rg7+ Kh6 37.Bxf5 Rf8 38.g4 Nc6 39.g5+ 1-0

 

(2) Radjabov,T (2663) - Lehtivaara,P (2335) [C01]
20th ECC Izmir TUR (1), 03.10.2004

 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nge7 8.Qf3 Be6 9.Ne2 Qd7 10.0-0 Bf5 11.Ng3 Bxd3 12.cxd3  12...0-0 13.h4!  13...Nd8 14.h5 h6 15.Ra2! 15...Ne6 16.Re2 Rae8 17.Rfe1 Kh8 18.Qg4 c6 19.Re5 Qd8 20.Qd1 Nc7 21.a4!  21...f6 22.R5e3 Nc8 23.Ba3 Rxe3  24.fxe3! Rf7 25.e4  25...Nd6 26.Qe2 dxe4 27.dxe4 Nce8 28.Qe3 Rd7 29.Rf1 Nf7 30.Nf5 Ned6 31.Nxd6 Nxd6 32.Re1 Nf7 33.Qf3 Ng5 34.Qf5 Qe8 35.a5! Rd8 36.e5  36...Rd5 37.Qg6! Qxg6 38.hxg6 38...fxe5 39.Rf1! Ne6 40.Rf7 Rd8  41.dxe5 b6 42.a6 Ra8 43.Bd6 Kg8 44.Rb7 Nf4 45.c4 Nxg6 46.Rb8+ Rxb8 47.Bxb8 b5 48.Bxa7 Ne7 49.Bc5 Nc8 50.cxb5 cxb5 51.a7 Nxa7 52.Bxa7 Kf7 53.Bd4 Ke6 54.g4 g6 55.Kf2 Kd5 56.Bb2 1-0

 

(3) Wang,Maria - Soyunlu,N (1834) [C01]
EYg12 Herceg Novi MNE (6), 21.09.2008

 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nge7 8.Qf3 Be6 9.Rb1  9...Rb8?! 10.Ne2 0-0 11.0-0 Qd7 12.h3 Bf5 13.Ng3 Bxd3 14.cxd3 Rfe8 15.Nh5!  15...Qd6?  16.Bf4 Qxa3 17.Bh6! gxh6 18.Qf6 Nf5 19.Qxf5  19...Re6! 20.Nf6+ Kg7 21.Nxd5 Qd6  22.Nf4 Re7 23.Nh5+ Kf8 24.Qxh7 Re6 25.Ng7  25...Rg6 26.Qh8+ Ke7 27.Nf5+ Kd7 28.Qxb8?  28...Qd5! 29.Ne3 Rxg2+ 30.Nxg2  30...Nxb8 31.Rfe1  31...b6 32.Re5 Qd6 33.Nf4 Qf6 34.Nd5 Qg6+ 35.Kh2 Qxd3 36.Rbe1 c5 37.dxc5 bxc5 38.R1e3 Qc2 39.Nf6+ Kc6 40.Ne4 Nd7 41.Rh5 a5 42.Rxh6+ Kc7 43.Kg3 f5 44.Nd6 f4+ 45.Kxf4 Qxf2+ 46.Rf3 Qh2+ 47.Rg3 Qd2+ 48.Re3 Nb6 49.Nb5+ Kb7 50.Nd6+ Kb8 51.Kf3 Nd5 1/2-1/2

Some games I got from chesspublishing.com.  I have deleted the notes due to copyright issues.  But, if you look through the games you can find some very interesting ideas if you won't to go a different direction than some of the main lines. 

Avatar of check2008
check2008
Jun 15, 2009
0
#26

The Winawer leads to a tactical game from both sides. Here's one of my recent games with the Winawer. It shows precisely how not to play it.

Needless to say, I learned from my mistakes.

Avatar of cyarstl-mteh
cyarstl-mteh
Aug 17, 2009
0
#27

I play

           1.e4..e6  2.d4..d5  3.Nc3....Bb4  4.e5...c5   5.Bd2....cxd4  6.Nb5...Bxd2+       7.Qxd2...Nc6   8.f4...Nge7   9.Nf3...0-0  10.0-0-0 I eventually recapture the pawn on d4 with the knight on b5 -  NOTE never play Nd6+ at any time durring this line black just plays Kf8 and atacks the e5 pawn until the knight on d6 is hanging

          the final position after o-o-o is only += but I like it

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Aug 17, 2009
0
#28

Seems playable. ... One thing that Fischer got himself in trouble for was insisting on following mainline theory.  With the white pieces he simply wouldn't back down in the opening... perhaps practical play was a little more useful.

Avatar of TheOldReb
NM TheOldReb
Aug 17, 2009
0
#29

I am surprised more winawer players dont play 5 a3 Ba5 !? instead of the customary 5...Bxc3+ .  My database indicates that black scores better with Ba5 than with Bxc3+. The only game I can recall playing the white side of the winawer against a GM ( Romero Holmes ) he did play 5....Ba5 and won the game though I didnt lose because of the opening.

Avatar of Elubas
Elubas
Aug 17, 2009
0
#30

It's agreed that ...Bxc3 is the best move. People also say why not ...cxd4 instead? At first it looks strong, but the complications favor white (I think white ends up playing Qg4 sacing a pawn or something).

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Aug 17, 2009
0
#31
Reb wrote:

I am surprised more winawer players dont play 5 a3 Ba5 !? instead of the customary 5...Bxc3+ .  My database indicates that black scores better with Ba5 than with Bxc3+. The only game I can recall playing the white side of the winawer against a GM ( Romero Holmes ) he did play 5....Ba5 and won the game though I didnt lose because of the opening.

Ba5 is actually very interesting.  It creates positions totally different from 'normal' winawer lines.   It's really just a 'feeling' but I doubt the line is objectively all that great.  Perhaps an immediate b4!? refutes it? ... just an idea.  If cxb4 axb4 Bxb4 Nb5 and white will have a wonderful outpost on d6 when the opportunity arizes, and his center is very strong... well worth it for a pawn you'll likely get back.

Avatar of Elubas
Elubas
Aug 17, 2009
0
#32

I don't think the immediate b4 is played.

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Aug 17, 2009
0
#33

It can be ... and has been a few times.  I don't believe it's mainline.  I'll have to check up on it.

Avatar of Elubas
Elubas
Aug 17, 2009
0
#34

Wow, it seems to be most played! You came up with a book move yourself!

Avatar of BillyIdle
BillyIdle
Aug 17, 2009
0
#35

Bastford published a very comprehensive book on The Winauer 30 years ago.  They were playing it back in Alekhine's day. 

Doubtful you have discovered a refutation for the Winnauer.  Look at the Fischer - Tal matches with it, and GM Ulhmann's games.  Keep on trucking my friend.  No refutation is in sight.

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Aug 17, 2009
0
#36

I take it you didn't read the thread :P.

Avatar of Elubas
Elubas
Aug 17, 2009
0
#37

lol.

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Aug 17, 2009
0
#38

I hate that.  If players who are barely intermediates are gonna show up trying to sound smart, the least they can do is figure out what they're trying to sound smart about :P.

 

Back to the Ba5 theory shortly :P.

Avatar of ericmittens
ericmittens
Aug 17, 2009
0
#39

I've just started playing the Winawer and by far the worst variation for me is the positional 7.Nf3 lines. I've been a classical french player all my chess life but I thought it was about time I played the winawer and embraced the madness!

Avatar of undefined
NM undefined
Aug 17, 2009
0
#40
ericmittens wrote:

I've just started playing the Winawer and by far the worst variation for me is the positional 7.Nf3 lines. I've been a classical french player all my chess life but I thought it was about time I played the winawer and embraced the madness!

Good to hear.  I think the current status is that 7. Nf3 leaves black roughly equal ... the Nf3 lines will never (just by the nature of the position) 'refute' the winawer... but totally playable and pretty practical if you understand exactly what you're doing with the a3-4-5 idea.