Rookie question about the Centre Game (3. Qxd4)

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johnmusacha

Pardon me if this too basic, but I was going over one of my recent offhand "blitz" games using a master's database and found that the standard Centre game (1. e4 d5 2. d4 exd4 3. Qxd4 Nc6 4. Qa4?! Nf6) ended up faring poorly for White.  I thought this to be counter-intuitive.  But the master's database on this site at least has black winning 61% of the time after 4. ...Nf6!

Seeing as how most of the Centre game openings in this line end at the position notated above, I would ask why does White ever, ever, play this opening.  It is, however, quite common in beginner games that I play.

Enclosed is a .pgn diagram:

And sorry if this has been covered before or is common knowledge.  I'm kind of a beginner and certainly no opening theorectician.  Thanks in advance.

b3nnyhaha

simply because the queen doesn't belong in the centre of the board at the beginning of the game where black gets an easy lead in development due to the queen being subject to attack. if you want to play 2. d4, after exd4- c3 is probably a better option, leading to a position similar to the smith morra gambit against the sicilian. in any opening there are 3 things you are trying to do as quickly as possible- control the center, develop your pieces (signified by the rooks being connected- meaning directly protecting eachother), and securing your king's safety (usually by castling).   

in the line you've given, white has moved his queen twice where that time could have been used to develop the minor pieces. obviously it is playable for white, otherwise no-one would play it- but it is certainly sub-optimal.

johnmusacha

Just an update, I checked both my "Modern Chess Openings," Twelfth ed. (1982), and my "Ideas Behind the Chess Openings," by Fine (1943), and they both recommend 4. Qe3 (Q-K3) in this line.  I swear, most people I encounter play 3. Qa4 though!

Fine concluded, concerning the Centre Game, that "Attempts to improve on White's play have been unsuccessful.  Consequently the opening cannot be considered adequate for White." (p. 8) This passage was written in 1943.

Walter Korn wrote in the 1982 edition of MCO that "the opening began to disappear from master practice long before 1900," and "the only attraction of this opening today is surprise value." (p. 107)

I, however, encounter this opening all the time playing on this site.  Am I deluded?

robotjazz

I've seen it quite a bit myself, and played it (Qa4)often as white when I first started here. This sequence was avoided after I started playing more prep moves like Nf3. I read in a book, I saw it in half priced books, but didnt purchase it, it was a book where Kasparov tells chess players things that are general rules he follows. One of the "rules" that stuck with me was to spend up to 10 moves positioning your pieces before ever attacking, and to not exceed your fourth horizontal. This is a rule that is almost always broken by me or my opponent, but I think it is good advice since it came from a world champ. If you encounter this position while playing black, quickly castle and get a rook to e8. 

videomantv

I appreciate the advice from b3nnyhaha"the queen doesn't belong in the centre of the board at the beginning of the game where black gets an easy lead in development due to the queen being subject to attack."

Isn't taht an example of 'Tempo', where your opponenet gets 'free' developing moves as he pushes back agaisnt your Queen?

Tempo is a concept I didn't appreciate at first, but after losing a few games due to poor development and a runaround Queen (that little skank!) I am starting to understand why it's important.

The advice from Kasparov seems obvious but somehow difficult to follow. Patience is a virtue I would develop, but it takes too long.

VLaurenT

This is playable : compare with the position after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nf3 e5 - in your example, white has the move.

johnmusacha

After 5. Bc4! and black has, as Frank Pentangeli put it in the Godfather II, lu cazzo...

Playable but sub-prime like a pre-2007 home mortgage, baby.

johnmusacha

I think I got the centre game and the centre-counter defence mixed up.  When I saw e5, I thought it meant white moves e4-e5, when in fact the writer meant black moving ...e7-e5.

So in response to 4. ...e5 in the Centre-counter (Scandinavian), nix the Knight capture.  I would play 5. Bc4, or maybe Bb5 ch.

Irontiger
alexlaw wrote:

it seems about as good as the parham to me.

Please, don't go further this way, or the flesh odor will attract the troll herd...

The center game might be playable, but so is almost every first move from White including 1.f3, so it is not really a great opening.

surreal86

... like you said 'Rookie' or beginner.  Black gives up tempos galore letting black develop and at the same time chase his queen all over the place.  Instead he should worry about developing as fast as possible...