Ruy Lopez best for White?

Ok, I have to ask. Why? I usually recommend that beginners start with the Italian complex, or else a gambit. They need to learn tactics, and the closed positions that come from some Ruy lines don't really help with that. Openings that force an early pawn break and target the weak f7 pawn just seem much more educational for beginners.

Unless I'm missing something 70. h7?? Re7! is a draw.

I've not said that or at least that's not what I meant. I just cannot name any GM from current top 10 or top 20 that would use as their main weapon something else than Ruy or (more rarely) Scotch after 1. e4 e5 - surely this must mean that these openings are considered most challenging for black.

Anyway, I don't want to start argument on that - everyone has their own preferences. Should really learn not to comment on these threads...

Your idea stumped me for a while! But after h7 black is stalemated except for the rook - meaning he can get a perpetual on your king. If you ever take the rook you will draw.

For learning to play tactically, and learning to play positionally, it is very difficult to find anything better than the Ruy Lopez to recommend to novice chessplayers.

Wow! Thanks for all of the posts. A good read.

@ Fromper - Outstanding post.

1. I agree. As an amateur chess player way below 2400, I don't believe any opening will give me an advantage as White that will carry me through the middlegame, since I make so many mistakes and have so much to learn in the way of tactical patterns, checkmates and endgame technique, etc.

What got my attention was Irving Chernev's comment regarding the Ruy Lopez after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 - - - "Bb5 is THE strongest move on the board". Is Chernev saying that 3.Bc4 is not as strong? I don't know enough about chess to answer that question, thus my topic was born.

I really like 3.Bc4, as it attacks the weak f7 square, something of which I have some experience with. Almost two years ago, the move 3.Bb5 seemed like a waste of time to me.

This bishop will get pushed back by 3...a6, or with the Exchange Variation, White loses the bishop pair while moving the same piece twice in the opening. Black moves his knight once, while White moves his bishop twice, which does cost White time, however, Bb5 discourages Black's knight from moving for a time in almost all lines of the Ruy. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5, I guess 3...Nd4 is playable, since I found it in my Fritz 2010 Powerbook of Openings.

Would I be able to play or even remember this line? Nope.

2. I have viewed many of the Gambit Openings posted by GM Boris Alterman over at ICC. I can't hold all of it in my head, but it does give me some great attacking ideas and many of the attacks come before Black has time to castle. After sacrificing material, White must play agressive and keep the initiative for the gambit to work, according to Boris.

3. "Shoot for a central pawn exchange early in the opening".

This too got my attention. Why? As a beginner I have always been mystified by the more experienced players being so willing to exchange pawns and pieces in the beginning of the game, and this happens often in many opening lines.

When I first started playing chess, I figured that it was like a game of "keep away", where the goal is to win material, not exchange material...then convert this material advantage into a win. My elementary students play in this way, not wanting to trade pawns or pieces, but trying to steal them from each other.

Well, that's a lot of typing for me. Again, a big thanks to all for your contributions to this topic.

3.Bb5 puts pressure on the knight which is protecting Black's pawn at e5, thus increasing the pressure on e5.  3.Bc4 is not aimed at a strategic object, but rather a tactical one, play against f7.  At the SuperGM level, the Ruy Lopez is much more popular than other open games, but as others have said, other openings are perhaps more tactical and fun at lower levels.

Well said. I wish I could type less and say more. :)

As to other openings that are perhaps more tactical and fun at lower levels, my preference is still the Danish or Goring Gambit. It's easy to remember and I like the feeling of having the initiative for at least 4+ moves without too much effort.

I'm entertaining the Smith Morra Gambit if Black plays the Sicilian. Boris Alterman covers over 50 Gambit lines, but not the Smith Morra. I wonder why? Is it bad for White to play this line?

What Boris Alterman calls the Accelerated Danish Gambit -

Smith-Morra Gambit - 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 - with one Fritz Powerbook continuation.

The Smith-Morra Gambit is perfectly playable at amateur levels. Even at master level, it's not awful, but it's just not white's best try for an advantage out of the opening. And it's fun to play, which is important. Yes, there are opening traps that black can walk into, but even if he doesn't, white still has superior piece development and the initiative throughout the game, which is often enough to win the gambit pawn back if nothing else.

I'm not going to try to convert you away from 3. Bc4 (which I think is quite a good move) but I think you could increase your understanding of chess in general if you understand why white doesn't need to be particulary worried about his bishop being pushed back in Ruy Lopez. Actually, there are good arguments to think that the position arising after 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5?!(this may be premature) 5. Bb3 might be better for white than the standard Italian position after 3. Bc4. Think about it - white's bishop is on the same diagonal but it's much less vulnerable to counterattack on b3 than on c4 whereas b5 may just as easily turn out to be weakening as helpfull for black.

If interested, you can check this old thread for further discussion: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/italian-game-vs-ruy-lopez

I've always liked the Ruy, though it does have its negatives.

The Ruy is one of the great openings of all time: if you become proficient at it, you will understand a lot about this game. However, it just isn't some people's cup of tea. I always suggest that people play what they like.

I am getting quite a bang for my buck by studying the Ruy Lopez, and can't seem to get enough. :)

I own all three volumes of Mastering the Chess Openings by IM John Watson (1.e4, 1.d4 and 1.c4). Watson’s goal is to present the interconnections of chess openings taken as a whole. I find this method better for me than only memorizing specific lines and ideas behind the lines. I need the big picture first. The details can be filled in as my understanding of chess grows.

Regarding 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc63. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5.Bb3, Watson has this to say, “…d5 can no longer be played with tempo, which negatively impacts both of Black’s normal defences after 3.Bc4.”

The last part of this quote, (after Bc4) is not very clear unless one reads the previous chapters on both the Giuoco Piano and the Two Knights Defence, where if Black does achieve the move …d5 at some point after 3.Bc4, White may lose a tempo or suffer some positional disadvantage.

What I find most compelling is the idea that 3.Bb5 does significantly discourage Black from playing …d5, giving White a space advantage, even more so if e4-e5 is played.

In 2006, IM John Watson reaffirms what Irving Chernev said back in 1957 regarding the Ruy Lopez and 3.Bb5, “1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 – These moves constitute the Ruy Lopez, aptly called the ‘King of Openings’. It has dominated 1.e4 e5 chess for more than 100 years and is considered the best chance for White to gain the advantage in the play that follows 2…Nc6. Thereupon hangs the popularity of 1.e4 itself, no small burden for a single move to bear.”

This is truly a remarkable claim, to paraphrase, if one can play 3.Bb5, by all means, play it! All other third moves by White following 2…Nc6 are not as good. Incredible. One could say that 3.Bb5 is best by test.

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I'll check out the Italian Game vs. Ruy Lopez link. Thank you.

I completely agree completely,a lot of my games that are played as white,i play the ruy and usually win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And again, quite a few people here are missing the point. The Ruy Lopez may be the best opening possible for white at the grandmaster level. But you're talking about subtle positional advantages, where a computer program might say that white is .02 pawns better than if he'd played another opening. Below the master level, that .02 pawn difference is worth exactly half of jack squat.

For beginners, 3. Bc4 is more immediately tactical and more likely to lead to a very early central pawn exchange, and thus, it's more educational. At intermediate level, you can probably go either way as to which is "better" for a player at that level. At master level, the Ruy is probably best. But the choice of opening isn't going to determine the outcome of any game below master level, unless you're intentionally playing for some wild tactical trap that your opponent walks into because they haven't seen it before, but that's just bad chess that won't work against opponents with a clue.

Musikamole, your rating here is 1400 and you're spending your time reading opening books??? Get Silman's Complete Endgame Course, and a couple of good tactics puzzle books, and ditch the opening books. You'll improve MUCH faster.

Thanks for the excellent post. I am currently studying the Ruy Lopez, Giuoco Piano and The Two Knights Defense because I want to learn how to play 1.e4 and defend my e-pawn, since my king can not defend it. I played 1.d4 for many months, with the peace of mind that my d-pawn was immediately defended by my queen.

3. I'm completely addicted to the tactics trainer at www.chesstempo.com. I spend about 90% of my chess activity on that site alone.

I own Silman's Complete Endgame Course and have done a few chapters on K+R vs. K and just a little on K+P vs. K. I plan to do much more on K+P - and IM Danny Rensch has a comprehensive King and Pawn video series that I will view again.

1. I absolutely agree. At my current rating, I can't take advantage of a .02 pawn advantage. Even a 1.0 pawn advantage is not enough. I get excited when I'm up a minor piece and then trade down for an easy win, where it's a K+R vs. K ending, for example. I know how to win that endgame. :)

2. You've said this in a previous post, and my chess understanding is not there yet to know why early pawn exchanges are educational for the beginning chess player.  Please elaborate. Thanks. :)