Scandinavian "Declined" 2.e5

Normally when someone declines the Scandinavian with 2. e5 I groan.  I play the Marshall/Modern Variation of the Scandinavian as Black.

http://www.chess.com/opening/eco/B01_Scandinavian_Defense_Modern_Variation_2

And today a big light bulb came on, when my opponent "declined" the Scandinavian...with 2.e5

1.e4 d5 2.e5 c5 3.c3? Bf5 4.d4 Qb6? 5.Nf3 c4

I always thought the Bishop on f5 could be harrased to death by kingside pawns but in reality my pawn structure gave my light squared bishop tons of power on the h7-b1 diagonal.  He had a couple of safe spots that were really cramping/dangerous for white along that diagonal with pawn support.

Don't get me wrong... I've played the line before but only today do I understand WHY everything I've ever read read says white declining the scandinavian with 2. e5 is a bad move.

I'm a Scandinavian person and I used to face this problem. However, examine the position:

The move 2.e5 is definitely a very bad move.  In the line you gave

I would place the white square black bishop on g4 pinning the N as even a better continuation.

@ponz I imagine after pinning the Knight I would see h3.  What would you do with the bishop at that point?

In the French Defense that Bishop is the "bad Bishop" and worth quite a bit less than a N.  So, after h3 I would take the N and this increases the pressure Black has on the center. Black also has a lead in development.

There are many times a N is worth more than a B. I have a friend who recently posted very good material on how the value of bishops and knights change during the course of the game and that there are actually 4 kinds of bishops!  

@sat

In what position exactly? White has to be careful not to start losing pawns before he plays h3. Black has ideas like cxd4+Qb6.

ponz111, the bad bishop is bad because it's stuck behind the e6 pawn. But as it is NOT stuck behind the e6 pawn, it becomes a "normal" bishop and should not be traded for the night, especially as this allows White to develop his queen for free!

helltank, I agree with you. However the B is approximately equal to a knight in this position.  and if White takes extra time to play h3 then it is ok to trade it off.  One thing to remember is that in some lines White can tempo off the B if say it is on f5 or h5.

In this kind of position Black has a big advantage.

Thanks for all the input.  This line is important for me to know for me as I can  "punish" white for the early mistake of 2.e5

@ponz

You're right that bishop pinning Nf3 is a nice improvement to the bishops position.

@jontsef

This position 1.e4 d5 2.e5 c5 3.c3? Bf5 4.d4 Qb6? 5.Nf3 [Bg4]

@pfren

Indeed c4 was a lemon.  My Queen was already supporting the pawn.   Better cantidates like e6 or Nc6 perhaps.

@helltank

I felt the same way, (hooray French without a bad bishop) but ponz's analysis is definitely right.

@Estragon

Thanks for pointing out that potential pawn chain weakness on d4.  I played c3 foolishly.  Chopping off that pawn chain cxd4, cxd4 with the target on d4 is right on.  I can see it makes whites center pawns very weak and he will have to battle for control of d4.  This is useful information for many other positions as well.

@jontsef

This position 1.e4 d5 2.e5 c5 3.c3? Bf5 4.d4 Qb6? 5.Nf3 [Bg4]

I'm not sure about the move order of that line.

First, 4...Qb6 seems too early since after 5.dxc5 Black is forced to take with the Queen, after which his position could fall apart quickly. And then 5...Bg4 after you already moved the Bishop seems like a waste of time. Assuming it happens though, and assuming after 5...Bg4 White still doesn't play 6.dxc5 (even stronger now) and plays 6.h3 instead, then Black should take the Knight. Notice if he had his pawn on e6 then cxd4 would've won a pawn, but now d5 is hanging.

Pointless side note regarding chess semantics:

Last time I checked, the definition of a bad Bishop was simply that his pawns were on the same color as his Bishop, whether or not the Bishop is inside the pawn chain.

It's funny, but nobody seems to want to take that pawn anymore!!!

Lol, I was referring to the d5 pawn. 

I think the story with 3.b4 is that Black should be greedy not only about the center with 2...c5 but also about taking the free pawn with 3...cxb4.

In my opinion Black will be up a pawn.

Well the analogous gambit that comes to mind is the French Wing Gambit (1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4!?) which is good for Black anyway. So when Black has the option of playing Bf5 or Bg4 it can only improve his chances.

Greedy?? Greedy????? Doesn't Black have a right to the center as much as white does???? What are you a biggot or something?????? LMAO!!!!!!!!!  That was a joke folks, I couldn't resist!!!  In all serious Melvin, as black when white declines on with e5, I play c5, and on move 3. I have personally NEVER seen white play b4. I've seen 3. c3, f4, d4, and even Nf3, but never b4.  However, thanks to you, I now know not to take!! Thanks for helping a brother out, Lolol. H.G.

??

1. e4 d5 2. e5 c5 3. b3 is certainly playable for white. Just wait for Bf5 before you play Nf3 or play f4 first. I don't say it is really good, but still better than most crap openings proposed in forums like this. I would be surprised to find that black can objectively play for an advantage.

A simple example without blunders:

The whole line with 1. e4  d5  2. e5?? depends on White making the terrible move 2. e5??  I have even seen some class A players and a couple of experts make this move which violates one of the main rules of playing chess.

If you are lucky enough to get this postion as Black and play the best move 2. ... c5 you will have a very good position with normal moves.   

2.e5 vs Scando is far from the best of course and allows Black to equalise easily, but also calling this move "terrible" or "violating one of the main rules of chess"   and marking it with "??" is total bullshit.