My engine is broken, it told me playing Nf3 and c4 against Qxd5, and the whole mainline that follows with black playing Bg4, 0-0-0 and e5 was losing for white..anyways I only played that once and usually stick to Nc3.
scandinavian sound sound
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lolurspammed wrote:
My engine is broken, it told me playing Nf3 and c4 against Qxd5, and the whole mainline that follows with black playing Bg4, 0-0-0 and e5 was losing for white..anyways I only played that once and usually stick to Nc3.
What a coincidence! MVL's engine was broken, too... but he fared a little bit better.
Feb 4, 2015
0
#24
Except I had d4 and c4 in like the main line, the game ended in a draw but apparently in the middle game I was lost when still in book..
-BEES- wrote:
drybasin wrote:
legionforthewin wrote:
pfren wrote:
The ...Qxd5 variations are OK for Black, provided that he is not terribly ambitious, and can defend a healthy but rather cramped position for quite some time.
I dont't see why 2.Nf6 is bad. It could transpose to any line with Qd5. How is Nf6 bad?
Because there are lines in each of the 2...Nf6 lines that give Black trouble, especially in the fianchetto variations with an early c4-c5 for White:
I have yet to see a refutation to the Portuguese that I've been fully convinced by, so long as Black retakes on d5 against 3.Nf3. Though perhaps when Smeardon's book comes out I'll get to see what the true holes are.
Also note that 2...Nf6 just transposes after 3.d4 Qxd5 or 3.Nf3 Qxd5, so that move itself cannot be less sound than the mainline Scandi. White's remaining responses are all inferior. So it would seem the move has equal value.
I think black has enough compensation for the pawn. A lead in devolopment... can't get much better than that.
"Chess principles" are complex and situational. It is true that beginners are always taught to not move the same piece twice in the opening, to not develop their queen too early, to not move the piece to where it can be easily attacked with other pieces, losing tempo... But the purpose of these recommendations is to develop good habits and positional understanding. These principles are not dogmas, they only apply in general.
In Scandi, black gets a good bargain for the lost tempo. Open d-file for counter-attack, easier development for the c8-bishop, choice between two viable castling options... Black does allow white to gain significant space advantage early on, as in most other semi-open systems, but the uncontested semi-open central file is something few other openings give black.
I usually play Mieses-Kotroc variation, with 3...Qd8. Looks a bit strange if you don't know much about this variation ("Queen moves twice in the first 3 moves, only to get back to its initial position, what?!"), but the queen is essentially developed on the semi-open d-file, and the d8 square is a good placement for it early on, it can exert a lot of pressure on the d pawn from there - and it isn't susceptible for potential kicking, unlike what happens in the 3...Qa5 and 3...Qd6 variations.
Compare it to the French, locked in bishop, or the Caro-Kann, tempos gained chasing the bishiop and playing c5, and I give the Center Counter a better evaluation. A safe pawn wedge which is difficult to break through without c4.
I'm sure that Tal and other great attackers would sac on e6 and tear other GMs apart.
In the second variation given in post #29, I think that f3 and c3 can be played and white has a solid extra pawn and is completely won.
Jul 13, 2017
0
#29
Listen kid, this is the Steinitz era, they broke a principle so they lose by force. If you cant do such an easy task as winning by force I think you should start reading about something else.
Jul 14, 2017
0
#31
bobbyDK wrote:
why is the scandinavian so sound for black?
it violates a lot chess rules.
queen out to early and neglets developments and moves the queen more than once.
white develops nearly all pieces in the opening. while black has a lot of pieces on the backrank.
I don't get. would a super gm be able to punish blacks violation of chess principles?
Black gets some compensation for the loss of tempo after 3.Nc3 ...Qa5 — white has blocked his c-pawn with his knight, so he can't establish a strong pawn center.
After d4 is played, nc3 is pinned by the queen, and playing Bd2 would unpin the knight, but develop the queen bishop to a sub-optimal square (the bishop will have to move again eventually, thus giving the tempo back).
There are lot of ideas for both sides. But the main point is that sometimes it's okay to break opening principles in exchange for some sort of compensation.
Opening principles aren't rules—they're simply helpful guidelines for beginners to follow as they learn how to play the game. Once you learn them, you can learn when to break them.
I started playing the Scandinavian/Center Counter way back before chess engines had any strength. Even wrote one of the first "modern" books on that opening.
In the 7th United States Correspondence Chess Championship my score was 4 wins out of 4 games with the black pieces. This was from my own theory at the time. It gained a lot of attention. I have had several of my games [with this opening as Black] published in chess opening books.
After all of that--I countinued to study this opening.
Sad to say, but in my opinion--this opening is not sound at the highest levels.
Jul 16, 2017
0
#33
Here's a blast from the past
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1068107
World champion goes down!
ponz111 wrote:
I started playing the Scandinavian/Center Counter way back before chess engines had any strength. Even wrote one of the first "modern" books on that opening.
that book of yours is great - at least when i forgot to buy toilet paper.
gr0thend1eck wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
I started playing the Scandinavian/Center Counter way back before chess engines had any strength. Even wrote one of the first "modern" books on that opening.
that book of yours is great - at least when i forgot to buy toilet paper.
Actually, you probably need a bidet! 
Does Anand still play it?? [i would guess he gave it up]
StupidGM wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:
My engine is broken, it told me playing Nf3 and c4 against Qxd5, and the whole mainline that follows with black playing Bg4, 0-0-0 and e5 was losing for white..anyways I only played that once and usually stick to Nc3.
I used three different engines to study the main line of this blasted opening, and none of them could agree on anything. One had White +0.98, the other said equal, and there was never a clear path, making it perhaps one of the only "old school" chess lines left.
There is no way this opening has been refuted, and I would be much inclined to declare it a forced draw, but with strong practical chances for White.
try to be more GM, and less Stupid.
StupidGM wrote:
gr0thend1eck wrote:
StupidGM wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:
My engine is broken, it told me playing Nf3 and c4 against Qxd5, and the whole mainline that follows with black playing Bg4, 0-0-0 and e5 was losing for white..anyways I only played that once and usually stick to Nc3.
I used three different engines to study the main line of this blasted opening, and none of them could agree on anything. One had White +0.98, the other said equal, and there was never a clear path, making it perhaps one of the only "old school" chess lines left.
There is no way this opening has been refuted, and I would be much inclined to declare it a forced draw, but with strong practical chances for White.
try to be more GM, and less Stupid.
Mods? Please teach your members some manners.
They seem to go looking for fights quite a lot. Verbal aggression is a warning sign of physical aggression, by the way, and is properly dealt with as such.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings my precious little snowflake, but given your post it's pretty clear that your incompetence using engines is only rivaled by your incompetence understanding scandi positions.
no need to feel butthurt. btw, there's a sayin 'barking dogs don't bite'
StupidGM wrote:
knightedmagi wrote:
It's played at the highest level of chess. Anand played it in his world championship match with Kasparov. I think it's sound at the GM level, but maybe not at the super GM level.
I play the Center Game for many of the same reasons, and I believe it can be played at the world title level. The Scandinavian is definitely sound, but a bit narrow for Black (that can be an edge too).
Stockfish would crush any GM with it so that says enough for me.
My study of Chess960 openings says that early pawn breaks are generally good, even with the loss of tempo, so that further supports the Center Counter as perfectly viable.
Have not heard of the theory "that early pawn break are generally good, even with loss of tempo"
Do you mean good for White or good for Black?
Can you give some examples of play using this theory?
In the Sicilian there is often an early pawn break but it is not necessarily good for Black.
In any event, in my opinion, the Scandinavian/Center Counter is one of the poorer openings for Black.
3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 Bg6 6.c4... presumably intending Nc3 and Qb3 at some point, is an ambitious try but not without risk. White gets a pawn but also some weak squares, and Black's lead in development is not trivial. I've scoured those lines with an engine and White's advantage does not seem any greater than it is in quite a few respected mainlines. I'm not going to claim this is sound or equalizes by force. I'm really not sure, and I'm certainly not qualified to weigh in on such things. Black's position may have some kind of fundamental flaw, but proving so is not easy. A mistake from White after 2...Qxd5 gives Black equality. A mistake from white here gives Black a win.
The main idea behind 5.g4 Bg6 6.c4 is simply gobbling a piece. Black's compensation is scetchy, if not nonexistent.
You must simply learn HOW to use an engine to analyse.