Seems Fischer was correct about the kings gambit - Chess Forums - Page 3

stiggling

Dec 28, 2018

0

#41

Choowd3 wrote:

stiggling wrote:

Choowd3 wrote:

you are inccorect about its overestimation at depth 50 it gives black -.5

You don't know how to use an engine.

i understand that that dosent mean black will win the game the position is simply better for black even at that depth however this is assuming perfect play which a human just wont be able to due of course its not a refutation it just gives black the best position he/she can hope for

What I mean is, if you walk the engine down its main line it will change its mind.

Letting it think a long time on one position can be a useful first step, but then put its preferred move on the board and let it reach a reasonable depth. Do that over and over and sometimes the evaluation changes quite a lot.

Engines are strong, but the further they calculate the more moves they must ignore, so you can't just leave it on one position and let it reach an absurd depth like 50.

Especially in the opening, you have to at least reach a middlegame position... even then some structures it overestimates until you get close to the endgame.

Choowd3

Dec 28, 2018

0

#42

stiggling wrote:

Choowd3 wrote:

stiggling wrote:

Choowd3 wrote:

you are inccorect about its overestimation at depth 50 it gives black -.5

You don't know how to use an engine.

i understand that that dosent mean black will win the game the position is simply better for black even at that depth however this is assuming perfect play which a human just wont be able to due of course its not a refutation it just gives black the best position he/she can hope for

What I mean is, if you walk the engine down its main line it will change its mind.

Letting it think a long time on one position can be a useful first step, but then put its preferred move on the board and let it reach a reasonable depth. Do that over and over and sometimes the evaluation changes quite a lot.

Engines are strong, but the further they calculate the more moves they must ignore, so you can't just leave it on one position and let it reach an absurd depth like 50.

Especially in the opening, you have to at least reach a middlegame position... even then some structures it overestimates until you get close to the endgame.

you can definitely say that but you cannot deny that the engine likes what it sees when its calculating with that move

stiggling

Dec 28, 2018

0

#43

Yes, and you cannot deny that if you take that same engine, same hardware, and show it all the way to move 9.e5, and let it think a long time again, it will be showing zeros, not -0.50

rterhart

Dec 29, 2018

0

#44

GM John Shaw has written what must be the definitive work on the KG, called, unsurprisingly, The King's Gambit.

In its preface, he writes "Over the board, it is clear that the King's Gambit is effective at all levels up to and including 2800+". (But "If Black kan consult the relevant sources (...) and use an engine, then he should be able to solve his opening problems".)

On the Fischer Defense, he writes “Fischer was correct about that particular line [3 … d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4] being good for Black, but fortunately, White has other alternatives.” He then recommends White transpose to the Quaade Variation and there’s a whole chapter on the various alternatives.

In Shaw’s opinion, Fischer’s Defense is hardly the refutation it’s made out to be.

What does seem to be a refutation, however, is the Modern Defense (3 … d5). “Coming up with ideas for White has proved a challenge,” he writes. I’m not really in a position to judge, but it seems to me that the best White can hope for with correct play against the Modern Defense, is equality.

Having said that, the KG has a dubious reputation and there are many people here on chess.com saying it’s rubbish or busted or only playable at club level or whatever, and then I think of Shaw: “effective at all levels up to and including 2800+". Whoever says the KG is not playable doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

Choowd3

Dec 29, 2018

0

#45

rterhart wrote:

GM John Shaw has written what must be the definitive work on the KG, called, unsurprisingly, The King's Gambit.

In its preface, he writes "Over the board, it is clear that the King's Gambit is effective at all levels up to and including 2800+". (But "If Black kan consult the relevant sources (...) and use an engine, then he should be able to solve his opening problems".)

On the Fischer Defense, he writes “Fischer was correct about that particular line [3 … d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4] being good for Black, but fortunately, White has other alternatives.” He then recommends White transpose to the Quaade Variation and there’s a whole chapter on the various alternatives.

In Shaw’s opinion, Fischer’s Defense is hardly the refutation it’s made out to be.

What does seem to be a refutation, however, is the Modern Defense (3 … d5). “Coming up with ideas for White has proved a challenge,” he writes. I’m not really in a position to judge, but it seems to me that the best White can hope for with correct play against the Modern Defense, is equality.

Having said that, the KG has a dubious reputation and there are many people here on chess.com saying it’s rubbish or busted or only playable at club level or whatever, and then I think of Shaw: “effective at all levels up to and including 2800+". Whoever says the KG is not playable doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

oh its certainly not a refutation

MorphysMayhem

Dec 29, 2018

0

#46

Deranged wrote:

I play the king's gambit a lot and I'm curious: what do you think is the best refutation for black?

I love the white side of the KG. playing black I usually go with the falkbeer CG.

1. P-K4 P-K4 2. P-KB4 P-Q4!?

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 29, 2018

0

#47

From BF's 5th move (5...Nf6 which is the Berlin Defence btw), there are many legit ways to keep going.

Spassky played 6. d4, but coulda played....

6. Bc4 (the start of the Rice Gambit....depending)

or

6. Nxg4 (Riviere Variation)

These are derivatives of the Kieseritsky Gambit which was what was played in BS vs BF.

Someone wrote this....

4.h4 g4 5.Ne5- Kieseritzky Gambit

With 5.Ne5 White avoids being committed to a piece sacrifice and play often tends to be more positional than in other 3...g5 variations of the King's Gambit. White often lets the e4-pawn drop but goes after Black's pawns on g4 and f4. That said, David Flude has found attractive attacking possibilities for White in the line 5...Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6, which are analysed extensively by John Shaw in his book on the King's Gambit. However, Black is not short of other good responses. 5...Nc6 is a good way to reach unbalanced and equal play. My biggest problem with the line is 5...Qe7, which usually leads to a quick queen exchange on the e-file and a rather drawish queenless middlegame, though you will probably not run into that response very often. At grandmaster level 5...d6 tends to be the main objection, which if played accurately can also lead to very level situations, but at club level both sides should be able to keep some winning chances in that variation.
The bottom line is that 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 is the most definitely sound way of meeting 3...g5, but the problem is that Black has plenty of scope to steer the game into relatively quiet channels that tend not to suit the typical King's Gambit aficionado.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 29, 2018

0

#48

It probably just freeked him out when BS played 2. f4. And from there he just lost it.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 29, 2018

0

#49

MorphyManiac wrote:

Deranged wrote:

I play the king's gambit a lot and I'm curious: what do you think is the best refutation for black?

I love the white side of the KG. playing black I usually go with the falkbeer CG.

1. P-K4 P-K4 2. P-KB4 P-Q4!?

...and then 3. d4.....lol !!

elazarg

Dec 29, 2020

0

#50

I made a study out of Bobby Fischer's article in Lichess
https://lichess.org/study/2lhnOxzN/Iyx9jsGU

mrOpenRuy

Apr 16, 2023

0

#51

Deranged wrote:

I play the king's gambit a lot and I'm curious: what do you think is the best refutation for black?