Sicilian Defence (1 e4 c5), then Mainline or Anti?

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bong711

I go for mainline or open Sicilian. I enjoy open Sicilian with both colors.

fieldsofforce

1...c5 is the standard bearer of the Hypermodern School Of Chess.

dpnorman
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:
dpnorman wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The C3 Sicilian is the King's pawn cousin of the London

How? Many attacking players have tried the c3 Sicilian. Including Deep Blue, who beat Kasparov with it. There are very sharp lines such as 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nf5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 Nb6 6. Bb3 c4 7. Bc2, and the ending after 1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. dxc5 with a good deal of theory.

 

Opening stereotypes are almost always oversimplifications and often just not true. 

 

 

I never make generalisations...

The opening stats in explorer after 1e4 c5 are 34/33/34. Compared to other Sicilians, quite telling.

And most lines of the Closed Sicilian scores horribly for white in the Game Explorer. Are you going to tell me it's a forced win for black?

Ziggy_Zugzwang

Something as a straw-man argument. Where am I advocating the Closed Sicilian ? Some of you absolutely enjoy splitting hairs and arguing for it's own sake. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement by saying most other lines Sicilian lines, other than the Closed and the Wing Gambit etc. Honestly, the need to qualify every statement to avoid hair splitting could reduce us all to legislation trembling scribes happy.png

imsighked2

Game Explorer, Master Games ranks the moves after 1. e4 c5

2. Nf3 (most open Sicilians): White wins: 38 percent; draws: 30 percent; black wins: 32 percent

2. c3 (Alapin): White wins: 33 percent; Draws: 34 percent; black wins: 33 percent

2. Nc3 (closed Sicilians, Grand Prix): White wins: 35 percent; Draws: 28 percent; black wins: 37

2. d4 (Smith-Morra): White wins: 32; Draws: 33; Black wins: 46

I'd rather play mainline, and keep my advantage playing white. As black, I just learn how to defend against the Anti-Sicilians. I answer 2. c3 with 2..Nf6

 

penandpaper0089

I only play anti-lines simply because the number of positions white has to play in the open are so many. Many positions lead to complicated positional struggles and others are just concrete memory fests...

At least with things like the Smith-Mora or the closed sicilian the number of positions White has to play are fewer and it's easier to try and get a grip on them.

I just don't think that exploring the differences between the Sveshnikov, Kalashnikov and Lowenthal or the Kan and Taimanov or the Najdorf and classical are a good use of time for me.

Mal_Smith

Summary of Anti-Sicilian Systems, 

The c3 Sicilian (2 e3, intending 3 d4, with my usual responses as Black: 2...e6, 3...f6:

 

Closed Sicilian (3 g3 slow kingside build up intended)

 

... more to follow

Do you think my standard responses as Black, 2...e6, 3...f6, hold up "reasonably well" under all Sicilian variations at beginner/intermediate level?

imsighked2
Mal_Smith wrote:

Summary of Anti-Sicilian Systems, 

The c3 Sicilian (2 e3, intending 3 d4, with my usual responses as Black: 2...e6, 3...f6:

 

Closed Sicilian (3 g3 slow kingside build up intended)

... more to follow

Do you think my standard responses as Black, 2...e6, 3...f6, hold up "reasonably well" under all Sicilian variations at beginner/intermediate level?

I'd be tempted to play 4. dxc5 in response to 1. e4  c5  2. c3  d6  3. d4  Nf6. Then, if you take the pawn back, I swap queens and take your right to castle, all for a single pawn. I'm not sure if that's enough compensation. I wonder what an engine would think of that? I just checked Game Explorer. That would be advantage black. Nc6 rather than retake the pawn--probably better development.

I usually reply Nf6 immediately in response to 2. c3.

dpnorman
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

Something as a straw-man argument. Where am I advocating the Closed Sicilian ? Some of you absolutely enjoy splitting hairs and arguing for it's own sake. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement by saying most other lines Sicilian lines, other than the Closed and the Wing Gambit etc. Honestly, the need to qualify every statement to avoid hair splitting could reduce us all to legislation trembling scribes

Well my point is that statistics from so early are very close to meaningless, and citing them, which you did, to compare the Alapin to the London, is not a compelling argument...it's not a straw man if what I said proves that the statistics you cited are not important, is it?

Strangemover

Svidler in a banter blitz I watched recently playing black after 1.e4 c5 2.c3. 'Yes, people playing 2.c3. It shouldn't be allowed'.

imsighked2

I did an in-depth search for master games for players rated over 2500. I noticed Sveshnikov plays it a lot, but he wrote a book about it. Potapov is another high ranking player who plays it a lot. I didn't see a lot of other games by top-rated players choosing the Alapin. Vachier-Lagrave drew with it as white and Smerdon drew with it against Carlsen.

kindaspongey

"From modest beginnings, the c3 Sicilian has in the last 30 years catapulted itself to become one of the leading options for White players wishing to steer clear of Open Sicilians. ..." - GM John Emms (2009)

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1863568

thegreatauk

 i used to play the open Sicilian a lot with an English/Yugoslav attack positions but now i like the anti Sicilian 1 e4 c5 2 a3 with very good attacking chances  

Ziggy_Zugzwang
dpnorman wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

Something as a straw-man argument. Where am I advocating the Closed Sicilian ? Some of you absolutely enjoy splitting hairs and arguing for it's own sake. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement by saying most other lines Sicilian lines, other than the Closed and the Wing Gambit etc. Honestly, the need to qualify every statement to avoid hair splitting could reduce us all to legislation trembling scribes

Well my point is that statistics from so early are very close to meaningless, and citing them, which you did, to compare the Alapin to the London, is not a compelling argument...it's not a straw man if what I said proves that the statistics you cited are not important, is it?

argumentum ad nausaum

 

 

dpnorman
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:
dpnorman wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

Something as a straw-man argument. Where am I advocating the Closed Sicilian ? Some of you absolutely enjoy splitting hairs and arguing for it's own sake. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement by saying most other lines Sicilian lines, other than the Closed and the Wing Gambit etc. Honestly, the need to qualify every statement to avoid hair splitting could reduce us all to legislation trembling scribes

Well my point is that statistics from so early are very close to meaningless, and citing them, which you did, to compare the Alapin to the London, is not a compelling argument...it's not a straw man if what I said proves that the statistics you cited are not important, is it?

argumentum ad nausaum

 

 

Doesn't really answer my point...seems like a giveup tongue.png

 

Statistics don't matter much. And the c3 Sicilian isn't an equivalent of the London at all. 

Ziggy_Zugzwang

OK you win. I prefer playing chess than competitive forum posting....

dpnorman
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

OK you win. I prefer playing chess than competitive forum posting....

Nobody thinks there's a competition but you...all that happened was I responded to your point and you became defensive. It's okay though. I forgive you happy.png

Mal_Smith
imsighked2 wrote:
Mal_Smith wrote:

Summary of Anti-Sicilian Systems, 

The c3 Sicilian (2 e3, intending 3 d4, with my usual responses as Black: 2...e6, 3...f6:

 

Closed Sicilian (3 g3 slow kingside build up intended)

... more to follow

Do you think my standard responses as Black, 2...e6, 3...f6, hold up "reasonably well" under all Sicilian variations at beginner/intermediate level?

I'd be tempted to play 4. dxc5 in response to 1. e4  c5  2. c3  d6  3. d4  Nf6. Then, if you take the pawn back, I swap queens and take your right to castle, all for a single pawn. I'm not sure if that's enough compensation. I wonder what an engine would think of that? I just checked Game Explorer. That would be advantage black. Nc6 rather than retake the pawn--probably better development.

I usually reply Nf6 immediately in response to 2. c3.

I hate loosing my right to castle. Burgess quite likes 2...Nf6 to intermediately attack the pawn, which forces White to advance it, or maybe d3. In any case, White's  can't play d4, forcing him to over-extend a pawn (maybe), or play a weaker move, which is a nice psychological blow! Of course Black's N has to move, which worries me... The other move Burgess likes, 2...d5, also immediately attacks the centre. This forces an exchange that leaves Blacks Q in the middle of the board, and just seems strange to me, as I usually go for a Najdorf. So maybe I will stick to 2...d6, Burgess says this is the only move for Najdorf players...

I want to stick to one system if possible... so if I can force events to a Najdorf I'll be happy. I've had trouble with the Grand Prix attack, which Burgess says has "real venom" for Najdorf players under the c3 cosh... so I'll need to study that.

dpnorman
Mal_Smith wrote:
imsighked2 wrote:
Mal_Smith wrote:

Summary of Anti-Sicilian Systems, 

The c3 Sicilian (2 e3, intending 3 d4, with my usual responses as Black: 2...e6, 3...f6:

 

Closed Sicilian (3 g3 slow kingside build up intended)

... more to follow

Do you think my standard responses as Black, 2...e6, 3...f6, hold up "reasonably well" under all Sicilian variations at beginner/intermediate level?

I'd be tempted to play 4. dxc5 in response to 1. e4  c5  2. c3  d6  3. d4  Nf6. Then, if you take the pawn back, I swap queens and take your right to castle, all for a single pawn. I'm not sure if that's enough compensation. I wonder what an engine would think of that? I just checked Game Explorer. That would be advantage black. Nc6 rather than retake the pawn--probably better development.

I usually reply Nf6 immediately in response to 2. c3.

I hate loosing my right to castle. Burgess quite likes 2...Nf6 to intermediately attack the pawn, which forces White to advance it, or maybe d3. In any case, White's  can't play d4, forcing him to over-extend a pawn (maybe), or play a weaker move, which is a nice psychological blow! Of course Black's N has to move, which worries me... The other move Burgess likes, 2...d5, also immediately attacks the centre. This forces an exchange that leaves Blacks Q in the middle of the board, and just seems strange to me, as I usually go for a Najdorf. So maybe I will stick to 2...d6, Burgess says this is the only move for Najdorf players...

I want to stick to one system if possible... so if I can force events to a Najdorf I'll be happy. I've had trouble with the Grand Prix attack, which Burgess says has "real venom" for Najdorf players under the c3 cosh... so I'll need to study that.

There are a lot of issues with what you've written, notably that the Grand Prix Attack starts with 2. Nc3 and the Alapin is 2. c3, so they're not connected. And then you say Burgess says 2...d6 is the only move for Najdorf players- without knowing or having read what he wrote, there's no way he's talking about 2. c3, and he's clearly talking about Nc3. Since 2. c3 is a totally different opening tongue.png

 

Also you said after 2...Nf6 white can't play d4, except he does, most of the time, after 3. e5 Nd5. And 2...d5 is a very respected move, leading to well-known IQP positions.

Ziggy_Zugzwang
dpnorman wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

OK you win. I prefer playing chess than competitive forum posting....

Nobody thinks there's a competition but you...all that happened was I responded to your point and you became defensive. It's okay though. I forgive you

Thank you for your forgiveness your holiness...