Spanish old Steinitz (C62) - why no one plays the main line

I noticed, after watching a video by GM Roman Dzindzichashvili "Ruy Lopez: Steinitz defense!", that I played more than 100 games as white with C62 (the old Steinitz), but most of my opponents did not play it "correctly" (6... g6 seems to be the correct continuation according to Roman, but it is rarely played). In the illustrated position, most internet players continue with 6...Nxd4?! 7.Bxd7 Qxd7 8.Qxd4. Maybe they hope for a blunder from white, I wonder, because the resulting position is rather sad for black.

Note that 6...Nf6!? is also a book move, and is sometimes played. 7.Nc3 Be7

It becomes the Old Steinitz Defence after black move 3, so your opponents do play it correctly!

To my eyes you seem to have invented a strange Scottish/Spanish hybrid with 4.d4 (suggest you call it the Andy Murray ...)  

OK, I'm being facetious, It's a perfectly valid response, just as Andy Murray is a perfectly valid tennis player (if just short of the very best...)

I tend to play somethng else on move 4, but white has several valid responses to 3.. d6, all of which are "correct". Look in the database you've paid for...

Black's position is "OK" after move 6; no worse than under most "Spanish torture circumstances".

Do you usually win from this situation as white? If it's 50/50, then that's fine...

Just about everyone misplays just about everything.

Mal_smith:

"It becomes the Old Steinitz Defence after black move 3, so your opponents do play it correctly!" 

This is not what I was saying. I said that my opponents may not play it correctly WHEN then play 6...Nxd4?!

"To my eyes you seem to have invented a strange Scottish/Spanish hybrid with 4.d4"

I did not invent it. There are 663 master games with 4.d4 just in this site's database. And its name is still the Old Steinitz. as GM Roman Dzindzichashvili said, the difference with the modern Steinitz is that in the old version black does not play a6 in the early stage of the opening.

"I tend to play somethng else on move 4, but white has several valid responses to 3.. d6, all of which are "correct". Look in the database you've paid for.."

I have looked into two databases: this one on chess.com and on ficsgames.org. I paid for the chess.com database, not for the other one because it's free. 4.d4 is overwhelmingly most often played (58 % of games*). Stockfish says that 4.0-0 (24 %), 4.Nc3 (2 %) and 4.c3 (7 %) are good alternates moves to 4.d4, so you are right on that point.

*games played on FICS with at least one player rated 2000+

"Black's position is "OK" after move 6; no worse than under most "Spanish torture circumstances".

After 6...Nxd4?, white wins 74 % of the games and 4 % draw. The stats are from expert level games on FICS (free internet chess server). As for master games, black played 6...Nxd4?! in only 3 games over 129 (chess.com database).

It is barely ok for black after 6.Nxd4 (white wins 60 % of the games and 8 % draws - expert level games, or 50 % win 30 % draw - master games).

"Do you usually win from this situation as white? If it's 50/50, then that's fine..."

My own statistics on C62 opening (always with white) are the following in the period 2010-15:

FICS: 22 games played, 12 won. However I did not study and play well this opening until very recently.

chess.com: the database is giving only two games, but I'm sure I played more, I'll figure it out.

I cannot tell in which games my opponent played 6...Nxe4?! but considering that they are not influenced, it should be the same as for other players. The FICS database shows that 32 % of players play this move for expert games (2000+) on FICS, while only 6.7 % play the more theoretical move 6...g6. I believe these proportions are different for lower-rated games. As I said above, according to chess.com master database only 3 % of masters make the mistake.

The 25 games with 6...g6 in the FICS database shows 44 % of victory for white and 56 % for black. The 50 master games on the chess.com database show that after 6...g6, white wins 28 %, 38 % draws, and 34 % wins for black. Therefore the statistics are strongly in favor of this move.

Stavros_34:

"Second...4.d4 do not help white to play for an advantage. By changing so early one of the two center pawns simplifys the game which helps black who want to equalize. After the natural moves Nf6,Be7,0-0 for black what ever white decide to do developing his pieces or exchange it's difficult to create a positional advantage.

The only way for white to play for an advantage is to go for the big center...c3 with the idea to push d4."

You are right that 4.c3 gives also excellent results.

But this is strange then, since 663 masters played 4.d4, but only 51 played 4.c3, according to the chess.com database. However It may be biased since it includes transpositions. The ratio is 370 for d4 against 25 for c3 in master games on chesstempo.com, when considering only the actual moves. The ratio is 2754 / 331 for expert level games on FICS. The ratio is 496 against 53 on chessgames.com. All databases agree.

Why would most masters play d4 in this position if the only way to go for an advantage would be c3?

What masters do hope for when playing d4?

Calling 6...Nxd4 a mistake is quite bold, unless you can come up with a refutation.

After swapping 2 pairs of pieces, black has a passive posiion but no weaknesses. Many amateur players are happy with that.

Database statistics say very little about the quality of moves. Quoting nothing but win/loss percentages is a sign of ignorance.

I do not deny that I am ignorant about the way to exploit the position after 6...Nxd4 7.Bxd7+ Qxd7 8.Qxd4. This is why I post this topic. All I know is that white will have no difficulty to finish development and has a small edge in the center.

I ask the question: why are the statistics against 6...Nxd4?! There must be some refutation published, or masters would play it.

I update my posts and I would say 6...Nxd4?! instead of 6...Nxd4?. Thank you for correcting.

How did you get 5. O-O as the mainline over 5. Nc3?

What is wrong with 5. O-O exd4 6. Nxd4 g6 7. Bxc6 bxc6 8. Nc3 with a normal old stenitiz position -- Black's position is solid, but passive, so White retains a small advantage.

6...Nxd4 is not in the database, but 6...Nf6 7. Nc3 Nxd4 is. In which case Black has only traded a pair of minor pieces without creating any counterplay and is just worse.

It is a similar issue after 5. Nc3 Nxd4?!

And you are right, 5.Nc3 is most often played

"What is wrong with 5. O-O exd4 6. Nxd4 g6 7. Bxc6 bxc6 8. Nc3 with a normal old stenitiz position"

There is nothing wrong, and both sides have pros and cons. But it seems it's one of the best option for black. This is the kind of lines discussed in the videos by GM Roman D. I will watch it again to tell you why he likes it at black. Of course I cannot be as precise as in the video

http://www.chess.com/video/player/ruy-lopez-steinitz-defense---part-1

He seems to prefer it over the Berlin defense when black wants a win because it gives black more chances of winning (less drawish)

It would be pointless to repeat everything here but the author of the video says that the position is like king's indian and he claims that the position does not require difficult calculations for black.

The New and Improved  Steinitz  ( also called Modern Steinitz I believe )  is better than the old Steinitz .  

I've played 21 games as white in old Steinitz (C62) and have a result (+17-1=3).

I saw I played f4 lots of times. Any examples of GMs' games?

 Ok Black has the bishop pair and more center pawns, but might just lose in a simplified endgame if White's king reaches the a6 square. Black can trade into drawish rook endgames and hold the game. The natural course of the game is a knight and rook vs. a knight and bishop endgame when the side with the bishop has a damaged pawn structure.

Since White's e-pawn can be a target, he should be careful about playing f4.

The game is still (+/=)

GM Roman Dzindzichashvili shows how to deal with f4 in the video. (I must say I was not paid by the administrators to make the promotion of the video ). But he says that on f4 (in position shown), black should not play Nf6 but the knight will go to e7 after black chases the white knight away with c5.

The main reason why no one plays C62 in general is because most people play the Modern Steinitz (C71) - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 if they want to play a Steinitz at all.

The move 3..a6 (Morphy Defence) is very beneficial and as it is usually a free move (white plays 4.Ba4 most of the time. If white goes with the exchange variation the situation is resolved early and black is known to have no particular problems), and allows the possibility of a timely b5, breaking the pin such that black's center can be secured.

Back to your diagram and line, the move 6..g6 does have an excellent score (24.3%/40.5%/35.1% in 37 games from chesstempo database of games rated 2200+). However, this is not exactly a large sample size (in addition the games are rather old. This position is reached only 2 times after the year 2000, one of which is a blitz game of Leko-Aronian which Aronian won the game). It is also not difficult for white to deviate and get overwhelming statistics. For example 5.Nc3 is more popular and has a great score against most lines, even 5 ..exd4 6.Nxd4 g6.

Basically for white to get a statistical advantage white just has to make sure to not castle too early and play other useful moves instead (5. Nc3, 7. Be3). White king is never threatened in the entire process so delay castling does make a lot of sense to me.

Ok, but what does he have against the more conservative 9. Re1? 9...Ne7 10. Bf4 f6 does not inspire confidence.