suggestions for openings for black against e4

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Avatar of JonnyLinny
Any suggestions for what opening to play as black against e4?
I’ve tried playing e5 and learning Andrew Toths Chessable course but it’s too much to learn on top of what I’m trying to learn for white e4.
Tried the scandi but I dont enjoy the positions I get into.
Examples of openings I like to play are Evans gambit, Smith Morra gambit, Hennig gambit.
I’m about a 1600 rated online player.
Avatar of crazedrat1000

The only e4 defense I find doesn't have some major downside to it is the sicilian.

e4/e5 is too much about rote memorization. And white mostly chooses the variation.

The french is great but it's simply boring in many lines... though I will say there's not alot white can do to spice up the french. It's the best alternative to the sicilian but I couldn't play the french every game.

The Caro-Kann there are just too many chaotic attacks against it and it's all up to white what variation he wants to go into. Some people apparently find defending all of that fun but I will pass.

The nimzowitsch defense you end up in a bad hypermodern position and you should just play the modern. Or you get transposed right back into e4/e5.

The modern... well you have to play a hypermodern opening, it's not the kind of game most people find enjoyable.

The Pirc... is just worse than the modern, play the modern.

Alekhines... white has a simple formulaic way of dealing with it, it's just not that great at that point.

Scandinavian... can be fun but we all know it's dubious.

Sicilian is the only line with no downside... Luckily there are like 20 different sicilians you can play.

While the sicilian has alot of theory, there are also sidelines that'll allow you to bypass the theory, and you basically have control over which variation you want to play. But learning chess is a very long term commitment, don't expect quick results... taking shortcuts won't always get you very far.

Avatar of JonnyLinny
Thanks for the detailed reply. I really appreciate it.
Yeah I was thinking the Sicilian, I like an opening with an attacking potential.
Gonna try find an intermediate short and sweet on Chessable and stick with it. At my level including me there shouldn’t be too much theory memorised
Avatar of JonnyLinny
As long as I get a chance to attack I will enjoy playing an opening. I think I just need to find the right Chessable course
Avatar of crazedrat1000

Sicilian is generally a more defensive opening, though it depends on the variation. There are some attacking sicilians... But generally it's a defensive positional opening with underlying tactics. The positions often break down into tactics, and at that point black can play for a win... black also has a long term structural advantage with the pawns in the center. So maybe watch a few youtube videos before you invest in a course on it.

But if you like attacking... e4/e5 is honestly the best option. Maybe the Scandinavian is an alternative.

At your level some early sideline in e4/e5 could allow you to attack without learning tons of lines. The Latvian gambit is one option. It may not be a completely sound opening but it's not going to matter until you're rated alot higher...

Infact... even at 2200+ elo rapid on lichess black still has a positive winrate in the latvian gambit, funnily enough. So for all the talk you hear of this being refuted it's really not happening.

Some lines in the french are very aggressive, like the winawer... but then you have other lines like the exchange which are very dry, so it's a mixed bag in that regard.

Avatar of ThrillerFan
JonnyLinny wrote:
Any suggestions for what opening to play as black against e4?
I’ve tried playing e5 and learning Andrew Toths Chessable course but it’s too much to learn on top of what I’m trying to learn for white e4.
Tried the scandi but I dont enjoy the positions I get into.
Examples of openings I like to play are Evans gambit, Smith Morra gambit, Hennig gambit.
I’m about a 1600 rated online player.

Most decent openings have theory of some sort. There are basically four good responses to 1.e4:

1...c5 - The most theory-ridden. There are numerous forms of the Anti-Sicilian, and even the Open Sicilian can have numerous lines. Like in the Najdorf, you have the 5 well known moves, 6.Bg5, 6.Be3, 6.Be2, 6.Bc4, and 6.f4. But then you have 6.h3, 6.Rg1, 6.Bd3, even 6.a4.

1...c6 - The Caro-Kann has the heavily-theorized Advance Variation, the Exchange Variation, the Panov-Botvinnik Attack, the old main line (3.Nc3), the Two Knights, the Fantasy Variation, etc.

1...e6 - The French probably has the fewest unique lines (3.exd5, 3.e5, 3.Nd2, 3.Nc3, 2.d3, 2.b3), but many are heavily theory-ridden, especially 3.Nc3.

1...e5 - There are indeed numerous lines, but you can resolve that problem. If you play one of the main lines of the Ruy Lopez, let's say the Zaitsev, you have the Italian, Scotch, Four Knights, Vienna, King's Gambit, Danish Gambit. Well, you actually can eliminate a lot of that. Yes, you would still need a line against the King's Gambit, Vienna, Danish Gambit, and Four Knights, but you can avoid the Ruy Lopez, Scotch, and Italian by playing the Petroff (a.k.a. The Russian Defense).

Avatar of sfhhjggfhihftjjtfdft

i think it is e5 the most popular

Avatar of crazedrat1000

The sicilian can be played in many different ways, it doesn't have to be super-theoretical... you can avoid theory in the sicilian by playing various deviations... for example, against most anti-sicilians there's a rare countermove you can play that changes the position completely... this is one of the best things about the sicilian.

Here 2... e5 is played in 2% of games and I haven't seen an alapin player follow the main line yet, they usually just push d5 and trade down:

Avatar of dcyftukd

Caro kann?

Avatar of RookMindset
JonnyLinny wrote:
Thanks for the detailed reply. I really appreciate it.
Yeah I was thinking the Sicilian, I like an opening with an attacking potential.
Gonna try find an intermediate short and sweet on Chessable and stick with it. At my level including me there shouldn’t be too much theory memorised

There are no openings where you always get to attack. The Sicilian will give you some attacks fairly often. So will 1…e5. Seeing your love for gambits, I think the Polerio will be right up your alley. Against the Ruy, the Marshall is a great gambit at the club level but as you climb the rating ladder you’ll find more and more people who know too much theory in it, and also with all the Anti-Marshalls there’s about a 20% chance you get a true Marshall out of a Ruy. If you go with Schliemann, you’ll get it on the board far more often, but it’s a bit dubious.

I made a brief blog post on short and sweets. Sorry for the plug but I genuinely think it’s relevant. It covers some stuff against 1. e4 for black (specifically I recommended the Polerio and Open Spanish) and also against 1. d4 and some stuff with White. The other 1…e5 course I like, which I didn’t present in the above blog, is Werle’s e5, which goes for the Chigorin. If you want to play a different Sicilian, I’d go with Plichta’s Accelerated Dragon. Iirc Naroditsky recommended the accelerated dragon as a beginner-friendly sicilian, and the annotations in that course are very good. If you must play Caro, choose L’ami’s course, no glysmith.

One last thing - many people are scared of the 1. e4 e5 sidelines. I find it a bit odd. Most, if not all of these sidelines (by which I mean everything excluding Ruy/Italian/Scotch) can be neutralised with a timely …d5. King’s Gambit? d5. Center Game? d5. Danish? d5. Goring? d5. Vienna Gambit? d5. Ponziani? d5. Halloween Gambit? d5. Nakhmanson? d5. And so on (because I forgot the rest).

Avatar of dcyftukd

The Latvian gambit is fun

Avatar of JonnyLinny
Thanks for the detailed replies Rookmindset and ibrust.
I think I am going to give the Sicillian defence a try as black. Will try to stick with it for a few months to give it a real go.
I don’t like playing against so is part of my reasoning.
Hopefully my oppos at my level will know less theory than me.
Thanks for the replies
Avatar of JonnyLinny
Have you got a link to the blogpost?
Avatar of RookMindset
JonnyLinny wrote:
Have you got a link to the blogpost?

I embedded it in the comment, but here: https://www.chess.com/blog/RookMindset/free-chess-courses-to-boost-your-opening-knowledge

Out of curiosity, what sicilian did you pick?

Avatar of AngusByers

One thing to keep in mind when learning an opening as White is to also use that study time to learn the Black side. You need to prepare as White for the most challenging responses by Black after all. That way, if you face that opening but you have the Black pieces, you already have the lines learned. So as you're learning White's side, look for the lines chosen by Black that you wouldn't want to see your opponent play, and learn those as your options as Black.

While White's first move tends to me that Black responds to White rather than determines how things start, there are some decent choice to consider if you want to try and steer the game as Black towards a familiar set up. For that you have a few choices, and it's probably best to look at a few of them and see which ones lead to positions that you are comfortable with. The French, Caro Kann, and Petroff's are all solid and will serve you well no matter how strong you get. The Sicilian is also very good, but of the lot, probably has the most theory to work on. Still, as Black you don't have to know every option, rather you just need to concentrate on which flavour of Sicilian you want to work on.

The others will also require preparing for a number of decent options by White as well, and at some point if you get really strong you will probably have to take the time to learn the Sicilian from both sides.

Eventually you are going to reach the point where your opponent knows how to best respond to whatever you play as White, and you'll drop anything that only works for White through tricks, and you'll drop anything that is bad for Black for the same reason. As such, the opening won't be viewed as "what gives me the advantage" but rather "what gets me to middle game positions I understand and like to play".

Avatar of chessterd5

The least theory intensive repertoire that I have found for black against 1.e4,... is 1...,d6. And play some type of philidor position. It avoids pretty much all of White's 2nd move alternatives except for weirdness ( which you can't control anyway) or 2.f4,... then you can choose between playing a kings Gambit as black or black can play 2...,c5 and go into a Gran Prix Sicilian.

Avatar of SwimmerBill

Depends on what you want - should the opponent have similar desires:

If you want to equalize then wait patiently for your chance, play CK or, maybe , classical french.

If you want a sharp game where you counter attack play Winawer or Sicilian.

(I like the white side of 1. e4 e5 so you'd need others to recommend that- but there is nothing wrong with it either.) Whatever you pick, there will be plenty to learn along the way.

All just my opinions of course- Bill

Avatar of Ethan_Brollier
chessterd5 wrote:

The least theory intensive repertoire that I have found for black against 1.e4,... is 1...,d6. And play some type of philidor position. It avoids pretty much all of White's 2nd move alternatives except for weirdness ( which you can't control anyway) or 2.f4,... then you can choose between playing a kings Gambit as black or black can play 2...,c5 and go into a Gran Prix Sicilian.

Personally I would call the least theory intensive repertoire the Qd8 Scandi. Philidor requires a lot of prep with how many completely viable independent lines there are for White, and everybody knows at least one of them decently well.

This is not the case for the Qd8 Scandi, in which both sides are down a pawn and White is up a tempo. This would be a bad thing except White has no way to push the advantage if Black just plays passive and develops (Nf6 e6 Be7 0-0 a6 Nbd7 b5 Bb7 sort of thing, y'know, the usual) and White can't actually use the tempo advantage because it was gained via 3. Nc3 with tempo on Black's queen on d5, but now without either an e-pawn or a c-pawn, White has no control of the center and therefore also has to play somewhat passively with that tempo advantage, drastically reducing its effectiveness.

Avatar of RalphHayward

I personally would argue that if one plays a classical opening as White but wants to become an all-round player it might make sense to have something hypermodern in the Black repertoire against 1.e4 be that the Pirc or Modern or Alekhine or even the Owen. In order to get experience not only in grasping the centre and initiative but also in seeking to undermine the centre and seeing chess as a "game of information" looking for the reply which uses the first player's choices against him. The Sicilian (although excellent) has a tendency to also be rather "too much to learn", hypermodern stuff usually doesn't. But there are tactics to be found and enjoyed.

Avatar of crazedrat1000

The french and modern I don't really see practical problems with playing, it's just a matter of taste, I don't enjoy them. But if you're the type of player who does enjoy those positions... more power to you.

There are sicilians that are somewhat hypermodern, i.e. the nimzowitsch. Again, you can avoid theory in the sicilian. The sicilian is a giant and extremely rich opening.

I think if you really want to be good ... ideally you should dabble in many different lines... especially the core lines you play against... the understanding you gain by playing an opening is never matched by merely playing against it. However, when it comes time to choose a serious repertoire... it's a whole different matter.