sveshnikov vs dragon

Cali_boy613
Which do you believe gives black better winning chances? Looking for personal opinions, due to the fact asking which is "better" is Pointless.
Bishop_g5

 With your tactics at 1584 its kind of premature to begin with Dragon Sicilian. For the same reason, you have to switch goals in your mentality playing Black pieces and the way you approach the opening in general. Your concern should be what Sicilian defence and any kind of opening helps you find a playable game and equalize the dynamic balance without allowing positional weaknesses, 

Winning chances doesn't occur from the opening only. What you want from the opening as Black is a playable position for the continuation that inspires you to play chess, when the inspiration its a result of your progress as a chess player in all aspects of the game...not only the opening.

Cali_boy613
Bishop_g5 wrote:

 With your tactics at 1584 its kind of premature to begin with Dragon Sicilian. For the same reason, you have to switch goals in your mentality playing Black pieces and the way you approach the opening in general. Your concern should be what Sicilian defence and any kind of opening helps you find a playable game and equalize the dynamic balance without allowing positional weaknesses, 

Winning chances doesn't occur from the opening only. What you want from the opening as Black is a playable position for the continuation that inspires you to play chess, when the inspiration its a result of your progress as a chess player in all aspects of the game...not only the opening.

thanks for the reply. it was really well thought out and explained. In the past when I've tried the dragon I've gotten really overwhelmed, especially by the Yugoslav attack, with all the complex chaotic tactical complexities. It seems like it would be a really fun opening to play if I got the hang of it, but if you say my tactics aren't at the level to be able to really get the hang of it yet, then I'll definitely wait until I improve a fair amount more. 

 

As for the sveshnikov, do you believe I'd be able to utilize it at my level? In the past when I've played it, it's seemed much easier to play. Thanks for the advice. I'll send you a badge, though I'm not sure if that really means anything.

Bishop_g5

  To be honest with you, i don't believe you are ready to mess up with the Sicilian. My advice is to invest more time in symmetrical positions. The open centre middlegame will improve at the same time your ability to calculate tactics, understand strategy and thematic endgame technique when in the Sicilian because of the position nature being asymmetry structure the endgames tend to be with a lot of imbalances which make them difficult for your level to adapt into them.  

1.e4 e5

 

https://www.chess.com/article/view/study-plan-for-beginners-the-opening2

 

Cali_boy613
Bishop_g5 wrote:

  To be honest with you, i don't believe you are ready to mess up with the Sicilian. My advice is to invest more time in symmetrical positions. The open centre middlegame will improve at the same time your ability to calculate tactics, understand strategy and thematic endgame technique when in the Sicilian because of the position nature being asymmetry structure the endgames tend to be with a lot of imbalances which make them difficult for your level to adapt into them.  

1.e4 e5

 

https://www.chess.com/article/view/study-plan-for-beginners-the-opening2

 

Got it, thanks for the help!

kindaspongey

Around 2010, IM John Watson wrote, "... For players with very limited experience, ... the Sicilian Defence ... normally leaves you with little room to manoeuvre and is best left until your positional skills develop. ... I'm still not excited about my students playing the Sicilian Defence at [the stage where they have a moderate level of experience and some opening competence], because it almost always means playing with less space and development, and in some cases with exotic and not particularly instructive pawn-structures. ... if you're taking the Sicilian up at [say, 1700 Elo and above], you should put in a lot of serious study time, as well as commit to playing it for a few years. ..."
In 2012, IM Greg Shahade wrote, "... These days ....c5 is more popular than ....e5, so who's to say that the lessons learned in e5 are somehow more valuable? It was by far the most popular opening in the past, but it's no longer the case. The lessons in the Sicilian, as irrational as they may seem to a relative newcomer, are very important to learn and who's to say that this type of action packed/dynamic chess is not just as good a way to start as the more classical style of chess. I definitely think that playing only 1.e4 e5 until 2000 is way too harsh a restriction in today's world of chess that is so much more than just classical 1.e4 e5 openings. That's not to say it's bad to play only 1.e4 e5 until 2000, but I think it's incorrect to assume that this is the proper way to approach chess development." Around the same time, he did acknowledge, "I specialize at teaching players who aspire to be pretty strong...like at least 2200, and usually higher, so I'm less skilled at helping 1500-1600 players without any particular ambitions to become great at chess".
In 2014, Pete Tamburro wrote, "... You will see [in Openings for Amateurs] the reply to 1.e4 to be the great reply of the open games with 1...e5. The Sicilian Dragon is presented as an alternative. ... I have found that scholastic players take to the Sicilian Dragon very quickly. ... A cautionary note: the Dragon is good at club level, but as you start facing better players you're going to find yourself memorizing tons of lines and the latest analysis, ... From my experience with coaching players below 1800, you won't need to do that too much. ..."

"... Two-thirds of this book deals with 'Open Sicilian' positions, in which White plays 2 Nf3 followed by 3 d4. This is by far the most common way for White to meet the Sicilian. White opens more lines for his pieces and attempts to exploit the fact that he will be ahead in development.
Let's take a look at the possible opening moves 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 ... . White is up in development and can move his pieces more freely. Black, however, has a structural advantage of an extra central pawn, which gives him long-term chances of taking control of the centre. A typical imbalance has arisen. The onus is on White to exploit his lead in development in order to secure an early initiative. If White plays passively or his initiative runs out of steam, then typically it's Black, with the better pawn structure, who enjoys the long-term chances. Thus it's quite rare for a state of 'dull equality' to arise. Often in the Sicilian, if Black 'equalizes', he is already slightly better! This structural advantage is seen in most Open Sicilian lines: for example, the Dragon, the Najdorf, the Scheveningen and the Classical Variations. The major exception to this rule is the Sveshnikov Variation, in which Black accepts pawn weaknesses in return for activity. ..." - GM John Emms (2009) in Starting Out: The Sicilian, 2nd Edition

"As a professional player, I participate in many opens. I need at least 7.5/9 for the first place so I have little margin for mistakes. ... It suffices to mention the 6.Bg5-attack with forced variations all the way up to move thirty or more, to understand my reluctance to use the Najdorf. ... The Dragon is even more unfit for a main repertoire. The same long narrow forced variations, many dead drawn endgames in some lines without h4, and on top of all - the unbearable sight of the d5-square, where one White piece replaces another. ... As for the Classical system, it has been sliding downhill for years. Now every one knows that White should choose the Rauzer attack 6.Bg5, castle queenside and enjoy the better position. ... The permanent hole on d5 makes the centre static and dooms the Sveshnikov to be poor on strategical ideas. ... GM Grischuk and many top players also think that the fame of the Scheveningen of the times of K-K matches has faded." - GM Alexander Delchev (2006)

majahitterking

That Karpov-Korchnoi game is brilliant!

Bongoman2406
Cali_boy613 wrote:
Bishop_g5 wrote:

 With your tactics at 1584 its kind of premature to begin with Dragon Sicilian. For the same reason, you have to switch goals in your mentality playing Black pieces and the way you approach the opening in general. Your concern should be what Sicilian defence and any kind of opening helps you find a playable game and equalize the dynamic balance without allowing positional weaknesses, 

Winning chances doesn't occur from the opening only. What you want from the opening as Black is a playable position for the continuation that inspires you to play chess, when the inspiration its a result of your progress as a chess player in all aspects of the game...not only the opening.

thanks for the reply. it was really well thought out and explained. In the past when I've tried the dragon I've gotten really overwhelmed, especially by the Yugoslav attack, with all the complex chaotic tactical complexities. It seems like it would be a really fun opening to play if I got the hang of it, but if you say my tactics aren't at the level to be able to really get the hang of it yet, then I'll definitely wait until I improve a fair amount more. 

 

As for the sveshnikov, do you believe I'd be able to utilize it at my level? In the past when I've played it, it's seemed much easier to play. Thanks for the advice. I'll send you a badge, though I'm not sure if that really means anything.

Then again, the dragon, if you get the hang of it, is dangerous. The yugoslav attack can be easily played against. For example:

1:Nd7 is a move I found reading The Fighting Dragon. 2: 12.Qe2 was played to stop 12...Nc4, 12.Bh6? loses to 12...Nbc4 13.Qg5 e5 14.Ndb5 Bf6 15.Qg3 Bh4 trapping the queen 3: d5 is home analysis. I can promise you that it is sound.

Bongoman2406
stuzzicadenti wrote:

here Fischer and Karpov show how to crush the Dragon using the Yugoslav:

 

note how they both use the 9.Bc4 line, it seems pretty solid and something I would personally play.

WHERE IS 9...ND7!!!!!!!??????? IT'S VERY GOOD AND DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!

blueemu
Bongoman2406 wrote:
stuzzicadenti wrote:

here Fischer and Karpov show how to crush the Dragon using the Yugoslav:

 

note how they both use the 9.Bc4 line, it seems pretty solid and something I would personally play.

WHERE IS 9...ND7!!!!!!!??????? IT'S VERY GOOD AND DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!

As of 2017, both 10. h4 and the odd-looking 10 O-O have a 2-to-1 winning percentage against 9. ... Nd7.

RubenHogenhout


Both openings are playable. The dragon is more sharp and risky maybe. But also the Svetnikov is sharp and positionel not so strong. So also there tactikal play is importent.

 

 

Bongoman2406
blueemu wrote:
Bongoman2406 wrote:
stuzzicadenti wrote:

here Fischer and Karpov show how to crush the Dragon using the Yugoslav:

 

note how they both use the 9.Bc4 line, it seems pretty solid and something I would personally play.

WHERE IS 9...ND7!!!!!!!??????? IT'S VERY GOOD AND DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!

As of 2017, both 10. h4 and the odd-looking 10 O-O have a 2-to-1 winning percentage against 9. ... Nd7.

About how many games were played with those moves?

pfren

9...Nd7 isn't much of a logical move. How is Black supposed to take advantage of the silly knight at b6 after 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Be2? (suggested by several authors, including Negi).

Bongoman2406
pfren wrote:

9...Nd7 isn't much of a logical move. How is Black supposed to take advantage of the silly knight at b6 after 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Be2? (suggested by several authors, including Negi).

Na5 or Ne5, aiming for Nc4 while Bh6 is unplayable

Bongoman2406

Also, why would the move be part of theory if it's illogical?

pfren
Bongoman2406 έγραψε:

Also, why would the move be part of theory if it's illogical?

Are you asking yourself? 1.e4 f5 is also "part of theory".

11.Be2 is tailored precisely around these two moves, Na5 and Ne5, when white will answer with 12.b3. 11...Na5 makes no sense at all, but even after the better 11...Ne5 12.b3 how is Black supposed to counter white's attack (13.h4 etc)?

Moving your knights around to create something that even an ultra-optimist wouldn't call "weakness", is nowhere close to a consistent plan.

Bongoman2406

If you do h4, h5 and hxg6, I have fxg6,  creating a natural escape route

coolchess_guy
[COMMENT DELETED]
Nic_Olas

I have tried both of these openings and have decided to stick with 1. E4 E5

bong711

Between the two, go with Sveshnikov. I won games as black and lost as white. I never use dragon as I scored 75% against it.