I am just joking:-) But it is quite annoying that You can not play 3. Bb5 after 2... e6 or 2...g6
System against anti-Sicilians
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Jan 19, 2014
0
#23
gundamv wrote:
So, if I switch to the Scheveningen, would that make it easier for me to deal with anti-Sicilians? If so, how?
I believe the Schevenigen became less popular because of 6. g4, players who want to get to the Schevenigen did so via the Najdorf move order. Not sure 6. g4 is still a problem.
I usually play the Sicilian Kan with 2...e6, and I know I will have to learn a bit of the related Sicilian Taimanov too.
2...e6 avoids Bb5 variations. Against the Alapin, for me it usually goes 1. e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3. c3 Nf6. I always decline the Morra Gambit with 2...Nf6. With the closed Sicilian, my pawns are at e6 and g6, and aim to develop with Nc6, Nge7 and Bg7.
MervynS is spot on again, except i think he meant "decline the Morra Gambit with 3...Nf6."
See gundamv, you can get right out of the Morra Gambit by transposing it to Alapin with 3...Nf6. Your only real issue is the Alapin. That's what has me wondering why you are seeking a system, gundamv.
I need to check your knowledge of the Alapin. You do realize that Black's strategy hinges on a quick hit against the e4 pawn, right? When White opts for c3, he forgoes a defense of his e4 pawn by Nc3. That means Black hits it immediately with ...Nf6 or ...d5. So choose one of those.
Smith Morra Gambit
ghostofmaroczy wrote:
MervynS is spot on again, except i think he meant "decline the Morra Gambit with 3...Nf6."
See gundamv, you can get right out of the Morra Gambit by transposing it to Alapin with 3...Nf6. Your only real issue is the Alapin. That's what has me wondering why you are seeking a system, gundamv.
I need to check your knowledge of the Alapin. You do realize that Black's strategy hinges on a quick hit against the e4 pawn, right? When White opts for c3, he forgoes a defense of his e4 pawn by Nc3. That means Black hits it immediately with ...Nf6 or ...d5. So choose one of those.
The Alapin is fine. I play ...d5 against it. The Smith Morra is OK too. But, in addition to those, there are the:
Wing Gambit
KIA
Closed Sicilian
Grand Prix Attack
Rossolimo/Moscow systems
2Nf3 followed by 3 Nc3 (or the other way around)
Maroczy Systems (2 c4)
What I want is a system that would work against most of them, so I don't need to memorize one line for the Wing Gambit and one for the GPA and one for the Alapin, etc.
Looks like the Kingside fianchetto works against the Closed Sicilian and the Rossolimo/Moscow system. Need to see if it works against the others.
Just checked the viability of a kingside fianchetto system against anti-Sicilians. What I found:
It is the main line of the KIA and Closed Sicilian.
It can be used against the Grand Prix Attack (e.g. 1 e4 c5 2 f4 Nc6 3 nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7), the 2 a3 anti-Sicilian, the Maroczy bind (See amartalon's post on the first page) and the Moscow Bb5 variation.
It has been doing terribly against the Alapin and the Smith Morra gambit.
It is not used against the Wing gambit (2 b4). For that, just take the pawn.
Does that sound about right?
Jan 20, 2014
0
#29
gundamv wrote:
Just checked the viability of a kingside fianchetto system against anti-Sicilians. What I found:
It is the main line of the KIA and Closed Sicilian.
It can be used against the Grand Prix Attack (e.g. 1 e4 c5 2 f4 Nc6 3 nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7), the 2 a3 anti-Sicilian, the Maroczy bind and the Moscow Bb5 variation.
It has been doing terribly against the Alapin and the Smith Morra gambit.
It is not used against the Wing gambit (2 b4). For that, just take the pawn.
Does that sound about right?
This seems correct, it doesn't work against everything (notably the Alapin) but it does work against most things, and the bonus is you can play the same setup in the open Sicilians.
gundamv wrote:
Just checked the viability of a kingside fianchetto system against anti-Sicilians. What I found:
It is the main line of the KIA and Closed Sicilian.
It can be used against the Grand Prix Attack (e.g. 1 e4 c5 2 f4 Nc6 3 nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7), the 2 a3 anti-Sicilian, the Maroczy bind and the Moscow Bb5 variation.
It has been doing terribly against the Alapin and the Smith Morra gambit.
It is not used against the Wing gambit (2 b4). For that, just take the pawn.
Does that sound about right?
I don't mean to create an echo in here, but yes, a kingside fianchetto is going to help you. The develoment of the bishop onto the main diag is standard.
gundamv, can I ask you whether you saw my list?
GMVillads wrote:
I am just joking:-) But it is quite annoying that You can not play 3. Bb5 after 2... e6 or 2...g6
You CAN, but it won't be good, you'll just effectively be playing a 1.a3 opening as black 
Jan 21, 2014
0
#32
There is no one standalone system that works against all Anti-Sicilians.
Taking the 2...e6 from the early posts as an example, that line works fine against the Closed, c3-Sicilian (if you like French positions), 2.Nf3 of course with White deviations at move 3 and 2...e6 is fine.
However, there are lines where 2...e6 isn't any good:
A) The Morra Gambit - 1.e4 c5 2.d4 e6?! (better is 2...cxd4, and after 3.c3, Black can either accept, or decline the gambit with 3...d5 or 3...Nf6.
B) The Wing Gambit - 1.e4 c5 2.b4 e6?! (Far better, even slightly adventagous for Black, is 2...cxb4 3.a3 d5!)
C) The Deferred Wing Gambit - 1.e4 c5 2.a3 e6, while possibly OK to hold White's advantage to a minimum, it's by no means the best move for Black, and being one that does use this line as White at times, I shall let you figure out Black's best response. After 2...e6, White can get an advantage via the pawn sacrifice with 3.b4!
amartalon wrote:
gundamv wrote:
Just checked the viability of a kingside fianchetto system against anti-Sicilians. What I found:
It is the main line of the KIA and Closed Sicilian.
It can be used against the Grand Prix Attack (e.g. 1 e4 c5 2 f4 Nc6 3 nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7), the 2 a3 anti-Sicilian, the Maroczy bind and the Moscow Bb5 variation.
It has been doing terribly against the Alapin and the Smith Morra gambit.
It is not used against the Wing gambit (2 b4). For that, just take the pawn.
Does that sound about right?
This seems correct, it doesn't work against everything (notably the Alapin) but it does work against most things, and the bonus is you can play the same setup in the open Sicilians.
The Alapin and Morra are avoided with 1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cd 4.cd d5 and 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd 3.c3 g6 4.cd d5. White can either choose to play positionally with 5.e5 or gambit with 5.Nc3.
I don't know how effective b4 is against the dragon. Other than that g6 really does avoid everything. White can play things like the gran prix or closed sicilian but the opening is practically the same. A plus w/ the hyper-accelerated move order is that you can use the Botvinnik setup against slow setups like the closed sicilian and KIA since Nf6 hasn't been played yet. But most of the time Black can simply use the dragon structure against everything.
If the player ever decides to play critical lines against the Morra or Alapin they can be slowly integrated without having to learn a bunch of other things that could screw up the repertoire. That's what makes an early g6 attractive. The real problems are the Yugoslav and Maroczy bind but Black wouldn't play g6 if they didn't want those positions anyway.
Jan 22, 2014
0
#34
TitanCG wrote:
The Alapin and Morra are avoided with 1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cd 4.cd d5 and 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd 3.c3 g6 4.cd d5. White can either choose to play positionally with 5.e5 or gambit with 5.Nc3.
I don't know how effective b4 is against the dragon. Other than that g6 really does avoid everything. White can play things like the gran prix or closed sicilian but the opening is practically the same. A plus w/ the hyper-accelerated move order is that you can use the Botvinnik setup against slow setups like the closed sicilian and KIA since Nf6 hasn't been played yet. But most of the time Black can simply use the dragon structure against everything.
If the player ever decides to play critical lines against the Morra or Alapin they can be slowly integrated without having to learn a bunch of other things that could screw up the repertoire. That's what makes an early g6 attractive. The real problems are the Yugoslav and Maroczy bind but Black wouldn't play g6 if they didn't want those positions anyway.
Good info thanks. Yeah in my opinion you shouldn't play an opening unless you actually want to play the most theoretically critical positions. These should be what you are actually hoping for going into the opening. So, while it may sound strange when I play an accelerated dragon I actually want to face the Maroczy Bind, because for me it is the most critical test of the line so that's what I want to be playing. Plus I seem to get people with the following trap quite often at my level...
After reading all of the posts on this thread, in my opinion, gundamv, is getting good advice. There is one critical factor that has not been mentioned yet. The factor is the Boleslavsky Wall. When White chooses to to play c4, it is very important for Black to have the pawn structure of the Boleslavsky Wall. More specifically it means that there must be Black pawns at c6 and d6. Not e6 and d6. What this makes possible for Black against the Maroczy Bind is the half-open e file. With the Boleslavsky pawn set up Black has the half-open e file to counterattack in the center against the slight space advantage the White gets with Maroczy Bind. This factor will help you, gundamv, to develop the anti-Sicilian Sytem that you are seeking. Just sort through the posts you have and you will figure out a system.
Socrates was a very wise ancient Greek philosopher. He had a teaching system that answered a question with a question. This system was designed to have the student think and arrive at his/her own answer. When you work out the answer and it is your own idea it gets cemented in the mind. It is far superior to being handed answers that do not include the why of the answer. Understand the why comes to you by working out the answer for yourself with a little help.
Jan 22, 2014
0
#36
Yaroslavl wrote:
After reading all of the posts on this thread, in my opinion, gundamv, is getting good advice. There is one critical factor that has not been mentioned yet. The factor is the Boleslavsky Wall. When White chooses to to play c4, it is very important for Black to have the pawn structure of the Boleslavsky Wall. More specifically it means that there must be Black pawns at c6 and d6. Not e6 and d6. What this makes possible for Black against the Maroczy Bind is the half-open e file. With the Boleslavsky pawn set up Black has the half-open e file to counterattack in the center against the slight space advantage the White gets with Maroczy Bind. This factor will help you, gundamv, to develop the anti-Sicilian Sytem that you are seeking. Just sort through the posts you have and you will figure out a system.
Socrates was a very wise ancient Greek philosopher. He had a teaching system that answered a question with a question. This system was designed to have the student think and arrive at his/her own answer. When you work out the answer and it is your own idea it gets cemented in the mind. It is far superior to being handed answers that do not include the why of the answer. Understand the why comes to you by working out the answer for yourself with a little help.
Uhm - This statement is extremely flawed. You say that Black needs to have pawns on c6 and d6 against the Maroczy Bind instead of d6 and e6. One problem. Black played c5 on move 1! Unless White is stupid enough to play Nxc6, a move that is 99.99999% of the time bad in the first 10 to 15 moves of any Sicilian Defense, Black can't get such a pawn structure.
Right on, ThrillerFan. Swing and a miss by Yaroslavl.
[COMMENT DELETED]
ThrillerFan wrote:
Uhm - This statement is extremely flawed. You say that Black needs to have pawns on c6 and d6 against the Maroczy Bind instead of d6 and e6. One problem. Black played c5 on move 1! Unless White is stupid enough to play Nxc6, a move that is 99.99999% of the time bad in the first 10 to 15 moves of any Sicilian Defense, Black can't get such a pawn structure.
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ghostofmaroczy wrote:
Right on, ThrillerFan. Swing and a miss by Yaroslavl.
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5 days ago · Quote · #1
gundamv
Is there a setup that Black could use against most (if not all) anti-Sicilians with some reasonable amount of success?
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You will notice that gundamv wrote, "...is there a setup that Black could use against (if not all) anti-Sicilians...). The key word is "setup". There are 2 setups that Black can use depending on what variation(s) White selects to play. One is the Boleslavsky setup (system). The other is the Symagin setup (system).
Please look these up. Remember move order and transpositions.
gundamv schreef:
There is also a real lack of resources on playing against anti-Sicilians as Black. There's a book by Rogozenko, but it's at least 10 years old and appears a bit dated. Plus it's more advance and lacks clear descriptions of the plans behind the anti-Sicilians. There's also a book from Everyman Chess, but it did not cover the Rossolimo/Moscow (which is very strong even at GM level). There's also one called "GMs vs. Anti-Sicilian" but it was written by several different GMs with different styles.
I only play Sicilian on occasion, so what I want is a simple system to play against anti-Sicilians that would at least give me drawing chances.
Palliser's anti-Sicilian bok (the one by Everyman) doesn't cover the Bb5 sicilians because he wrote a separate book on that also for Everyman around the same time.
If you are an amateur that plays the Sicilian now and then and have very low requirements for your anti-Sicilian lines (it "gives drawing chances", that's not a high bar), then I don't see why "it was written by several different GMs with different styles" is such a problem. All you need is the index page, basically. Same thing with the Rogozenko book, why do you care that it's 10 years old? I think Gallagher's excellent anti-Sicilians book from 1996 or so would still be fine.
Everyman also has "Dangerous Weapons: Anti-Sicilians" that is full of nice variations against many antis.
There are also books on specific open sicilians that also handle the antis; e.g. Chess Stars' Easiest Sicilian, Sharpest Sicilian and Safest Sicilian books, or Quality Chess' GM Repertoire book on the Najdorf (GM6).
So I think that there is no "real lack of resources".
I need a system against blacks anti anti-sicilians
What are they?
I always felt that 2...e6 is a kind of anti anti-sicilian, since it makes Bb5 basically unplayable and the Bb5 lines were always my preferred way of playing against the Sicilian OTB where you can get a steady advantage and play a fairly simple game.