ok, chefmark, I don't have a lot of time :-) but there is one simple variation which get a good position for Black.
Only one idea is important: DON'T TAKE on e4, when white plays it!! :-)
the colle system
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Estragon wrote:
If the Colle really presented any serious problems for Black, wouldn't Anand, Kramnik, Carlsen, and Aronian have it in their arsenals?
Colle-Zukertort is good for beginners mostly because the players have a clear plan during the game. Their bishop(s) are positioned towards enemy king. They keep on thinking on how to shoot down the enemy king with the thematic combination.
In expert level this opening just doesn't work well (compared to other well accepted openings).
If Colle-Zukertort works for you, try The Black Lion (Pirc family) as Black.
I just started playing the colle system but have encountered a problem fairly quickly that should be obvious to solve..I just don't know how. Keep in mind i'm a beginer.
1. d4 d5 2. NF3 NF6 3. Bd3 Ne4.
Black now has the knight on e4 with the pawn protecting it. I don't wanna take because the pawn will take and block e4 and ruin the whole point of the colle system. Any advice?
thanks
You really played 3.Bd3 in that game without your opponent objecting? 
The modern way to handle the Colle as white is in analogy with the Meran variation: From game at #2, 8.dc5 Bxc5 9.b4 with a strategically rich game.
However, the Colle is almost harmless if Black does not throw an early ...d5 in, or by the move order 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5, when none of the available moves (4.c3, 4.b3, 4.dc5) is presenting black with some "threat".
Well, here's what I'm playing:
The colle, the stonewall, samething.
Feb 6, 2012
0
#8
chefmark wrote:
I would like to discuss the colle system and its nightmare for black
It's not a nightmare against a King's Indian setup.
The main advantage of the Colle is that you don't have to spend years studying in order to understand it. Outside of a few patzer tailored traps I see very little hope of true advantage for white. You might not lose with it, but against strong players I doubt you'll win very much either.
It's OK opening, but hardly a nightmare, no matter which setup Black is using.
Even in symmetrical formations Black has no trouble, provided he pays a little care at the move order:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 (3...c5!) 4.Nbd2 (4.Bd3 b6!) Be7 (4...b6 5.Bb5+!? c6 6.Bd3) 5.Bd3 b6! when the Zukertort style development with b3 and Bb2 is not effective due to Back's excellent control over e4, while an eventual fast e3-e4 brings about a French Rubinstein a whole tempo up for Black (which of course is quite fine for him).
The upside, the only idea for white to learn is the bishopsacrifice on h7. This seems to be what is tempting players to the colle.
The downside is that this is also the only idea black needs to learn to defend and you may regret using time learning the colle:)
chefmark wrote:
I would like to discuss the colle system and its nightmare for black
The Colle system is just that...a system. Its meant for low level players, that doesnt require alot of opening knowledge. Its basically taking white and throwing away the opening advantage.
It sounds as though the Colle system would be good for at least 80% of the people on chess.com!
pellik wrote:
tigergutt wrote:
The upside, the only idea for white to learn is the bishopsacrifice on h7. This seems to be what is tempting players to the colle. The downside is that this is also the only idea black needs to learn to defend and you may regret using time learning the colle:)
This may be the first thing they teach in the Colle but it's not the only idea by any means. The colle-zuckertort for example can restrict black's piece placement and then go for some viscous hanging pawns. The other Colle, as pfren already said, can turn into the black side of the Meran a tempo up pretty easily. Also black needs to watch out for white transposing into a stonewall attack, which often times would involve a different set-up then what people take against the Colle proper.
i agree with the things you are saying but i dont think playing a reversed meran is the timesaver on theory people think it is when they choose the colle instead of 2.c4. if you are gonna put that much work into your white opening maybe 2.c4 is a better choice since it gives white better chances? or maybe if you play the meran as black maybe the colle is a ok try? i dont know. i find the stonewall hard to play against. almost everyone who plays it against me put pawn on d4, e3 and f4 and just sit on the position doing nothing and i cant get through the wall. but dangerous for black? i dont think so:)
The Stonewall "attack" is too committal. Black is absolutely fine following either a reversed QGD exchange variation, or a Queen's Indian formation (omitting ...d7-d5 for some time) when White does not have some concrete plan without the e5 outpost.
an interestning question to me who knows next to nothing about the slav is what would be the one who takes most work to learn of the meransystem and the queens gambit with 2.c4. When considering that i think the colleplayer who gets stronger will want to learn 2.c4 at a later stage anyway i think colle will give you more work than 2.c4 but thats my opinion:)
I started writing my last comment before you posted your previous one
coys3000 wrote:
I just started playing the colle system but have encountered a problem fairly quickly that should be obvious to solve..I just don't know how. Keep in mind i'm a beginer.
1. d4 d5 2. NF3 NF6 3. Bd3 Ne4.
Black now has the knight on e4 with the pawn protecting it. I don't wanna take because the pawn will take and block e4 and ruin the whole point of the colle system. Any advice?
thanks
I would play Qe2 in order to keep him from forking your queen and rook on the next move and then force you to capture his knight with your king (and so not able to castle).
After Qe2, you will be blocking the "colle" white bishop in, but there is nothing to worry about. You can fianchetto it after g3 and transpose into the King's Indian Attack easily and quickly. You'll be in a much better and flexible position than your opponent and be ahead two tempos.
chefmark wrote:
I would like to discuss the colle system and its nightmare for black
What nightmare for black would that be? Let's see... in the Colle there is no mystery for black to unravel, nor any complications for him to get lost in before he's even out of the opening: white's plan is clear as crystal from very early on and his first several moves are all predictable (though the order may vary slightly, it usually makes no difference):
1.d4, 2.Nf3, 3.c3, 4.e3, 5.Nbd7, 6.Bd3, 7.Qc2, 8.O-O, 9.Rd1, and then on move 10 (or as soon as he can, if black allows it) he'll play e3-e4.
So no suspense, guess work, or tension there for black to unravel. And because white's only planned pawn push is e3-e4, which will come later rather than sooner, there is not much in the way of tension in the center.
And black already knows white's plan, as there is nothing complex about it: try and push the pawn to e4 (or e5 if possible) to control that square and open lines to an attack on h7.
I played the Colle briefly as a beginner (it was the first opening I learned, made easy by its pretty much scripted moves and simple plan) and still regard it as just that: a beginner opening.
But maybe you were just kidding about that whole "nightmare for black" thing. Unless the nightmare you're referring to is the one he might have should the boredom in the opening lead to him falling asleep.
scandium wrote:
chefmark wrote:
I would like to discuss the colle system and its nightmare for black
What nightmare for black would that be? Let's see... in the Colle there is no mystery for black to unravel, nor any complications for him to get lost in before he's even out of the opening: white's plan is clear as crystal from very early on and his first several moves are all predictable (though the order may vary slightly, it usually makes no difference):
1.d4, 2.Nf3, 3.c3, 4.e3, 5.Nbd7, 6.Bd3, 7.Qc2, 8.O-O, 9.Rd1, and then on move 10 (or as soon as he can, if black allows it) he'll play e3-e4.
So no suspense, guess work, or tension there for black to unravel. And because white's only planned pawn push is e3-e4, which will come later rather than sooner, there is not much in the way of tension in the center.
And black already knows white's plan, as there is nothing complex about it: try and push the pawn to e4 (or e5 if possible) to control that square and open lines to an attack on h7.
I played the Colle briefly as a beginner (it was the first opening I learned, made easy by its pretty much scripted moves and simple plan) and still regard it as just that: a beginner opening.
But maybe you were just kidding about that whole "nightmare for black" thing. Unless the nightmare you're referring to is the one he might have should the boredom in the opening lead to him falling asleep.
I don't think I've ever seen a Koltanowski where white waited 10 moves to push e4.
I would like to discuss the colle system and its nightmare for black