The Colorado gambit - Chess Forums - Page 4

mcris

Nov 7, 2017

0

#61

There were numerous discussions on this site that such a small margin in no way implies won game by any side.

In fact, after Nf6 and 3 minutes of thinking, Stockfish gives the margin as 0.8 , what seemed to be a full pawn capture in the beggining, gradually diminishes as the game continues.

RoobieRoo

Nov 7, 2017

0

#62

SmyslovFan wrote:

robbie_1969 wrote:

SmyslovFan wrote:

Stockfish gives 7...Nf6 as best (+.92 at 30 ply using Stockfish 8), but as several strong (human) players have pointed out, 2...f5 is objectively bad. IM John Cox, for example, and GM John Nunn have both said it's bad.

You might be able to survive using the Colorado in an engine-based correspondence game, but why even try it? White is either winning or nearly winning after only 7 moves.

Actually in my database which has 1.7 million games all from fairly recently there are 138 instances. White has won 57, draws 35 and black wins 46. I agree that its objectively bad but it has shock psychological value, whatever that is worth.

Really?

Your database has 138 instances of 7...Nf6 in that position? And you only have 1.7 million games? Really?

it has 138 recent games of 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 and 2...f5. Why this should be difficult for you to believe I cannot say. That is the Colorado gambit is it not? Would you like a screenshot to confirm the veracity of my claim?

IM pfren

Nov 7, 2017

0

#63

What's the difference between 7...Nf6 and 7...g6?

Black wants to deploy the bishop at g7 anyway, to minimize white's control over d4, e5 after an eventual Nxc6. As a matter of fact, 7...Nf6 might well be a little less accurate, although in most lines the same positions will arise.

mcris

Nov 7, 2017

0

#64

pfren wrote:

What's the difference between 7...Nf6 and 7...g6?

Black wants to deploy the bishop at g7 anyway, to minimize white's control over d4, e5 after an eventual Nxc6. As a matter of fact, 7...Nf6 might well be a little less accurate, although in most lines the same positions will arise.

I can play you if you want. Your 8. ?

mcris

Nov 7, 2017

0

#65

DeirdreSkye wrote:

mcris wrote:

There were numerous discussions on this site that such a small margin in no way implies won game by any side.

In fact, after Nf6 and 3 minutes of thinking, Stockfish gives the margin as 0.8 , what seemed to be a full pawn capture in the beggining, gradually diminishes as the game continues.

0.8 is not a small margin since +1.0 is a theoretically won position(1 pawn up without compensation).Nakamura said that the position becomes unplayable at +0.9.

No, that's totally not true. Read my post again.

IM pfren

Nov 7, 2017

0

#66

mcris έγραψε:

pfren wrote:

What's the difference between 7...Nf6 and 7...g6?

Black wants to deploy the bishop at g7 anyway, to minimize white's control over d4, e5 after an eventual Nxc6. As a matter of fact, 7...Nf6 might well be a little less accurate, although in most lines the same positions will arise.

I can play you if you want. Your 8. ?

$20 per game is the only reason to waste my time dealing with your moves.

I could do it for free for educational purposes, but I'm convinced that you're not one of the learning kind.

Regards.

Toire

Nov 7, 2017

0

#67

Even our own IM Silman found the gambit taxing...

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov

Nov 7, 2017

0

#68

SmyslovFan wrote:

Pfren's acerbic comments hold some truths:

The Marshall is considered a drawing weapon that is mostly avoided by the +2750 fish. There are players here who seem to know more than those poor fish. I have no clue how those elite players can play professional chess with such a poor understanding of chess.

The Colorado Gambit is really bad. I wish Colorado had a better representative than a losing gambit.

Perhaps mcris could share his lines that show the Colorado Gambit is sound.

Pfren's lines are a good place to start. Where did Pfren go wrong in post #58?

I wonder if the Chess.Com Gambit is sound?

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov

Nov 7, 2017

0

#69

pretzel2 wrote:

i shall follow im phren's suggestion of 1...h5!

Yeah, but in this line, white has strong moves like 2. f4 and 2. h4.

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov

Nov 7, 2017

0

#70

robbie_1969 wrote:

SmyslovFan wrote:

Stockfish gives 7...Nf6 as best (+.92 at 30 ply using Stockfish 8), but as several strong (human) players have pointed out, 2...f5 is objectively bad. IM John Cox, for example, and GM John Nunn have both said it's bad.

You might be able to survive using the Colorado in an engine-based correspondence game, but why even try it? White is either winning or nearly winning after only 7 moves.

Actually in my database which has 1.7 million games all from fairly recently there are 138 instances. White has won 57, draws 35 and black wins 46. I agree that its objectively bad but it has shock psychological value, whatever that is worth.

I presume this has been lower-rated competition, and lower-rated competition is mostly random.

For example, first move advantage at 1500 level brings 0 added value, white and black wins are split

50/50.

First move advantage(white) at GM level splits white and black wins something like 52/48 or so.

At top engine level, you almost don't see any black wins, extremely rare, at all, and white and black wins are split something like 56/44 or even higher.

Basically that means, that one day, with perfect players, white and black wins will be split something like 99/1 and 1. c4 will simply win.

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov

Nov 7, 2017

0

#71

mcris wrote:

SmyslovFan wrote:

Stockfish gives 7...Nf6 as best (+.92 at 30 ply using Stockfish 8), but as several strong (human) players have pointed out, 2...f5 is objectively bad. IM John Cox, for example, and GM John Nunn have both said it's bad.

You might be able to survive using the Colorado in an engine-based correspondence game, but why even try it? White is either winning or nearly winning after only 7 moves.

I am ready to play you 7, 8 or 9 moves and I assure you that the resulting position will not be bad for Black.

What human players evaluated is inherently subjective and not objective. For this you need a scientific evaluation or much stronger player, like an engine. While engines can fail in some closed positions, this is open game like most accepted gambits.

Stockfish rightly sees white is winning.

+90 centipawns is a winning score in the middlegame, with the drawing margin

in the middlegame being around 60 centipawns or so.

So even Stockfish agrees white is easily winning.

RoobieRoo

Nov 7, 2017

0

#72

Imagine turning up to a tournament all booked up twenty five moves deep into the latest Ruy theory , you push your pawn to e4 and to your surprise your opponent plays 1...Nc6, well ok you think he is obviously simply going to transpose, so you play 2.Nf3 expecting 2...e5 and then comes 2...f5, gulp, your eyes stare at the board and then your opponent as he gleefully watches your pupils dilate into space saucer shaped dinner plates and all your book knowledge amounts to naught.

IM pfren

Nov 7, 2017

0

#73

robbie_1969 έγραψε:

Imagine turning up to a tournament all booked up twenty five moves deep into the latest Ruy theory , you push your pawn to e4 and to your surprise your opponent plays 1...Nc6, well ok you think he is obviously simply going to transpose, so you play 2.Nf3 expecting 2...e5 and then comes 2...f5, gulp, your eyes stare at the board and then your opponent as he gleefully watches your pupils dilate into space saucer shaped dinner plates and all your book knowledge amounts to naught.

Indeed, it is a huge dissapointment to get a clear advantage as early as move 2, while you would normally expect a fight.

mcris

Nov 7, 2017

0

#74

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

mcris wrote:

SmyslovFan wrote:

Stockfish gives 7...Nf6 as best (+.92 at 30 ply using Stockfish 8), but as several strong (human) players have pointed out, 2...f5 is objectively bad. IM John Cox, for example, and GM John Nunn have both said it's bad.

You might be able to survive using the Colorado in an engine-based correspondence game, but why even try it? White is either winning or nearly winning after only 7 moves.

I am ready to play you 7, 8 or 9 moves and I assure you that the resulting position will not be bad for Black.

What human players evaluated is inherently subjective and not objective. For this you need a scientific evaluation or much stronger player, like an engine. While engines can fail in some closed positions, this is open game like most accepted gambits.

Stockfish rightly sees white is winning.

+90 centipawns is a winning score in the middlegame, with the drawing margin

in the middlegame being around 60 centipawns or so.

So even Stockfish agrees white is easily winning.

As I (and other engine analysts posting in forums of this site) said, I disagree. 60 centipawns in the middlegame is nothing, does not guarantee win.

I challenge you to a game to see, in your oppinion, in how many moves White will win?

SmyslovFan

Nov 7, 2017

0

#75

I agree with mcris that the engine does not see a direct, clear win after 7 moves. But the debate isn't whether 2...f5 is terrible, it's whether it's so terrible it's losing against best play. The engine evaluation of ~+.9 is damning, but it may not be 9th level of Hell damning. It may only be on the suburbs.

If that's what you're looking for in an opening, great. Personally, I'm embarrassed that my state is associated with such an awful gambit.

RoobieRoo

Nov 7, 2017

0

#76

pfren wrote:

robbie_1969 έγραψε:

Imagine turning up to a tournament all booked up twenty five moves deep into the latest Ruy theory , you push your pawn to e4 and to your surprise your opponent plays 1...Nc6, well ok you think he is obviously simply going to transpose, so you play 2.Nf3 expecting 2...e5 and then comes 2...f5, gulp, your eyes stare at the board and then your opponent as he gleefully watches your pupils dilate into space saucer shaped dinner plates and all your book knowledge amounts to naught.

Indeed, it is a huge dissapointment to get a clear advantage as early as move 2, while you would normally expect a fight.

ha! there is a difference between enjoying a theoretical advantage on move two and proving it over the board! as you are very well aware. Someone that plays this irrational gambit must be booked up and ready for everything that white has at his or her disposal. Black is simply trollin white after 2...f5.

RoobieRoo

Nov 7, 2017

0

#77

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

robbie_1969 wrote:

SmyslovFan wrote:

Stockfish gives 7...Nf6 as best (+.92 at 30 ply using Stockfish 8), but as several strong (human) players have pointed out, 2...f5 is objectively bad. IM John Cox, for example, and GM John Nunn have both said it's bad.

You might be able to survive using the Colorado in an engine-based correspondence game, but why even try it? White is either winning or nearly winning after only 7 moves.

Actually in my database which has 1.7 million games all from fairly recently there are 138 instances. White has won 57, draws 35 and black wins 46. I agree that its objectively bad but it has shock psychological value, whatever that is worth.

I presume this has been lower-rated competition, and lower-rated competition is mostly random.

For example, first move advantage at 1500 level brings 0 added value, white and black wins are split

50/50.

First move advantage(white) at GM level splits white and black wins something like 52/48 or so.

At top engine level, you almost don't see any black wins, extremely rare, at all, and white and black wins are split something like 56/44 or even higher.

Basically that means, that one day, with perfect players, white and black wins will be split something like 99/1 and 1. c4 will simply win.

thank goodness we are human and prone to aberration otherwise chess would get played out.

SmyslovFan

Nov 7, 2017

0

#78

It's not hard to memorize 7 moves to get a great position. So what if the Colorado Gambit has claimed a few scalps, especially in blitz and bullet. That doesn't make it good. It doesn't even mean it's good for blitz/bullet.

Why give your opponent a winning or almost winning position right out of the opening when there are GOOD moves that can be played!

RoobieRoo

Nov 7, 2017

0

#79

No one is claiming that its any good, at least not to my knowledge. The idea that it is a winning advantage is not proven, .9 of a pawn is meaningless among amateurs. I would wager that the psychological factor is more than enough compensation for a measly pawn among club players.

Colin20G

Nov 7, 2017

0

#80

Are people winning/drawing games as black in correspondence game with this opening or white wins 100% of the time? If black can survive in such games it is not "refuted" no matter how uncomfortable it can be.