The Dark Knight System 1...Nc6 - Chess Forums - Page 2

InfiniteFlash

Apr 17, 2013

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#21

Why should white be afraid of the classical pirc (with nf3 and h3)?

In anycase....I am reluctant to overtend so early in the opening, but what about 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d6 3.d5!?, looks very interesting, although its not best probably. I mean white can go for safer options.

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

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#22

2.c3 isn't mentioned in the book at all, but 2...Nf6 already leaves white without a normal way to defend the e-pawn.

In the Pirc-like positions, White has a few ways to try to prove that black's queen's knight has come has come out too soon--I just don't find them very convincing.

Keep in mind that 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 O-O 6.O-O Nc6 is a viable sideline, and that after 6...Bg4 7.Be3, 7...Nc6 is the main move, so it is hard to argue that the Nc6 is fundamentally misplaced.

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d4 a6 6.Bxc6 bxc6 7.O-O Bg7 offers white some development, but black has the bishop pair and the b-file. Black's extra c-pawn helps control the center and can usually reach c5 to challenge white.

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 6.h3 is a good try for white, who has space, but he is not yet actually ahead in development, and black will have play on the dark squares, weakened by 5.d5.

Of course, the resulting positions are not to everyone's taste. Not everyone is going to love playing 1...Nc6, but some will.

Expertise87 wrote:

I have a question. After 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6, how do you get any kind of normal Pirc position? The Knight is normally not committed to c6 this early, if at all. I played 3.Bb5 in my recent tournament game against this variation and had a winning position after eight moves against my 2100-rated opponent, although this was helped by his bad play in moves four through eight.

Also what do you play against 1.e4 Nc6 2.c3, for example? If you play 2...e5 you're back in an Open Game (Ponziani after 3.Nf3 or White can play 3.d4) and 2...d5 seems inconsistent with the rest of your repertoire, although perhaps justified here due to the White Knight's inability to use the c3-Square to harass the Queen...

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

0

#23

White certainly does not need to be afraid of the Classical Pirc. Many people even play it on purpose, but it's not a good try for an advantage. Even better is to push a Classical Pirc on someone who does not really want to play it. Naturally, it is useful to know one's opponents.

1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d5 Ne5 4.Nxe5 dxe5 5.e4 Nf6 6.Nc3 e6 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.dxe6 Bxb5 9.Qxd8+ Rxd8 10.Nxb5 may seem promising for white, but 10...fxe6 11.Nxc7+ Kf7 12.Nb5 Rc8 is completely equal.

InfiniteFlash

Apr 17, 2013

0

#24

Thanks for sharing your analysis, looks very good. Of course, I have to deal with the pirc anyways after 1..d6 so its no big deal

Btw if no one noticed, FM Malachi1971 is the author of the book the OP is talking about.

InfiniteFlash

Apr 17, 2013

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#25

Malachi1971 wrote:

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 6.h3 is a good try for white, who has space, but he is not yet actually ahead in development, and black will have play on the dark squares, weakened by 5.d5.

Even so, I would prefer white, but everyone has their tastes. This happens to be the line I play, along with the classical setup.

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

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#26

It would be silly to claim that black equalizes in all lines in the Dark Knight System, or in any black opening, for that matter.

I have tried to make sure that black always has a very playable position, and that we are aware of good plans with which to continue the struggle.

1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 g6 4.d5 Nb8 5.e4 Bg7 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Be2 O-O 8.O-O is one critical position in which it is pretty clear that black has not yet equalized. You're right that 8...e5 is not very good. I am suggesting 8...a5, 9...Na6, 10...Nc5 and often 11...Nfd7, clamping down on the dark squares, before 12...e5. Sooner or later ...f5.

Expertise87

Apr 17, 2013

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#27

How about, then, 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.c3, where 3...Nf6 4.Nf3 is a Ponziani mainline? Is this covered in the book? 3...d5 is of course playable again but is not nearly as critical as 3...d5 in the Ponziani proper.

I'm just exploring various openings as White and wondering how you choose to deal with this.

Also you are suggesting playing into the Scotch, but White can also play an Italian with 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.Nf3 exd4 4.Bc4, are you meeting this with 4...Bc5 or 4...Nf6 or another move? These are all pretty theoretical openings, after all.

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

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#28

Whatever it's called, 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.c3?! d5 equalizes immediately.

Against Scotch Gambit, 4...Nf6. It's easy to learn, and doesn't lead anywhere for white.

It would be nice if there were an opening for black that was always non-theoretical and also always equalized quickly. Also, always led to positions that black knows well and white doesn't. Perhaps an opening where black outscores white at all levels of play? When I find such an opening, I will be sure to play it and write a book about it.

In the meantime, I am happy with just about any position that is well-known to offer white nothing.

IM pfren

Apr 17, 2013

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#29

I do not know what you recommend in the book, but I just don't like Black after 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4.

Now 3...Bg4?! 4.d5 is plain wrong, while after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 5.h3 Bg7 6.Be3 0-0 7.Bc4! Black's counterplay is, ummm... sketchy. Sure, he is solid with no weaknesses, but white's space advantage couldn't be safer.

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

0

#30

pfren wrote:

I do not know what you recommend in the book, but I just don't like Black after 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4.

Now 3...Bg4?! 4.d5 is plain wrong, while after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 5.h3 Bg7 6.Be3 0-0 7.Bc4! Black's counterplay is, ummm... sketchy. Sure, he is solid with no weaknesses, but white's space advantage couldn't be safer.

That exact position was very rare in my database, so I did not cover it, but it is similar enough to other positions that it is clear that black should play 7...e5 as in Thoma-Vonthron 1995. The point is that 8.dxe6 Bxe6 9.Bxe6 fxe6 frees black's position and gives him a central pawn majority and a half-open f-file. If white does not take, his Bc4 and Nc3 are badly placed.

nimzovitch2013

Apr 17, 2013

0

#31

Malachi1971 wrote:

pfren wrote:

I do not know what you recommend in the book, but I just don't like Black after 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4.

Now 3...Bg4?! 4.d5 is plain wrong, while after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 5.h3 Bg7 6.Be3 0-0 7.Bc4! Black's counterplay is, ummm... sketchy. Sure, he is solid with no weaknesses, but white's space advantage couldn't be safer.

That exact position was very rare in my database, so I did not cover it, but it is similar enough to other positions that it is clear that black should play 7...e5 as in Thoma-Vonthron 1995. The point is that 8.dxe6 Bxe6 9.Bxe6 fxe6 frees black's position and gives him a central pawn majority and a half-open f-file. If white does not take, his Bc4 and Nc3 are badly placed.

I'm glad I started this thread, getting some good extras I can write into the pages.

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

0

#32

nimzovitch2013 wrote:

Malachi1971 wrote:

pfren wrote:

I do not know what you recommend in the book, but I just don't like Black after 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4.

Now 3...Bg4?! 4.d5 is plain wrong, while after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 5.h3 Bg7 6.Be3 0-0 7.Bc4! Black's counterplay is, ummm... sketchy. Sure, he is solid with no weaknesses, but white's space advantage couldn't be safer.

That exact position was very rare in my database, so I did not cover it, but it is similar enough to other positions that it is clear that black should play 7...e5 as in Thoma-Vonthron 1995. The point is that 8.dxe6 Bxe6 9.Bxe6 fxe6 frees black's position and gives him a central pawn majority and a half-open f-file. If white does not take, his Bc4 and Nc3 are badly placed.

I'm glad I started this thread, getting some good extras I can write into the pages.

There is some discussion about the book and 1...Nc6 in general on the ChessPub forum:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1097168063/45#45

InfiniteFlash

Apr 17, 2013

0

#33

Malachi1971 wrote:

while after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 5.h3 Bg7 6.Be3 0-0 7.Bc4

it is clear that black should play 7...e5

Well, there is the argument that these moves are an improvement now that white is "fully developed" compared to say, the Petrosian variation of the King's Indian defense where here white has lost c4, and replaced it with the moves Bc4, Nc3 and h3. Maybe some provocative move such as 8.Bg5 to start to induce h6, idk maybe even queenside castling is possible. The normal kingside castle looks quite okay too, white can take some approach where he delays castling and avoids a kingside pawn storm, which is probably the only obvious counterplay black has at the moment ,I don't see any problems for white, but black has a playable position yes...

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

0

#34

Randomemory wrote:

Malachi1971 wrote:

while after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nb8 5.h3 Bg7 6.Be3 0-0 7.Bc4

it is clear that black should play 7...e5

Well, there is the argument that these moves are an improvement now that white is "fully developed" compared to say, the Petrosian variation of the King's Indian defense where here white has lost c4, and replaced it with the moves Bc4, Nc3 and h3. Maybe some provocative move such as 8.Bg5 to start to induce h6, idk maybe even queenside castling is possible. The normal kingside castle looks quite okay too, white can take some approach where he delays castling and avoids a kingside pawn storm, which is probably the only obvious counterplay black has at the moment ,I don't see any problems for white, but black has a playable position yes...

I also do not mean to imply that white's position is unplayable, but I don't think he has anything to be proud of. I think Bc4+Nc3+h3 are less useful than c4 if white castles short, but white's pieces are a target for black's counterplay if white castles long, e.g. 9.Qd2 a6 10.O-O-O?! b5 11.Bd3 b4!?, etc, or, for that matter, if white stays in the center, 9.Qd2 a6 10.g4?! b5 11.Bd3 c5! 12.dxc6 Nxc6 13.g5 b4!

Of course, there is 9.Qd2 a6 10.a4, which is probably the best move in the position, but this also commits white's king to the kingside (more or less).

InfiniteFlash

Apr 17, 2013

0

#35

okay you mean 7..e5 8.Qd2 a6 9.a4, nice move btw, it is very difficult for me to believe that white doesn't have quite a serious positional advantage here though even say black plays a natural continuation like 9..Nh5 10.O-O f5 11.exf5 gxf5 12.Bg5 Nf6 13.a5, and white pretty much can play without much risk...black's queenside development is somewhat clumsy if you ask me, really puts a damper on black's setup, black has better moves though of course, because I don't understand the position really :P

maybe even 10.a5 cementing the queenside, and clogging black's development if white wants it.

If black doesn't play this kingside pawn storm, where is the counterplay exactly?

I'm just saying, I would take this position every day over some KID closed center which can be a nightmare at times for me. Everything is not all kittens and rainbows though...

FM Malachi1971

Apr 17, 2013

0

#36

Randomemory wrote:

okay you mean 7..e5 8.Qd2 a6 9.a4, nice move btw, it is very difficult for me to believe that white doesn't have quite a serious positional advantage here though even say black plays a natural continuation like 9..Nh5 10.O-O f5 11.exf5 gxf5 12.Bg5 Nf6 13.a5, and white pretty much can play without much risk...black's queenside development is somewhat clumsy if you ask me, really puts a damper on black's setup, black has better moves though of course, because I don't understand the position really :P

maybe even 10.a5 cementing the queenside, and clogging black's development if white wants it.

If black doesn't play this kingside pawn storm, where is the counterplay exactly?

I'm just saying, I would take this position every day over some KID closed center which can be a nightmare at times for me. Everything is not all kittens and rainbows though...

Yes, sorry, I mean 8.Qd2, etc.

Black will almost certainly play for ...f5, but he doesn't have to rush--my feeling is that white doesn't have anything to do:

8.Qd2 a6 9.a4 Nbd7 10.a5 (good idea) b5 11.axb6 cxb6 12.Bd3 Bb7 13.O-O b5 14.Blah Rc8 15.Blah Nc5

Of course I could ask the computer, but I don't think we can trust a computer assessment in this type of position.

It would be handy to have an actual King's Indian expert.

I'd be interested to know how IM pfren assesses the position.

FM Malachi1971

Apr 23, 2013

0

#37

Some guy said "love you" to me during a chess game on chess.com. I didn't like it at all.

DarthMusashi

Apr 24, 2013

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#38

Expertise87

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 is a very original opening!

This is not original. It transposes back into regular double king pawn lines.

The moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 is the same postion but with a different
order of moves.

The moves 1.e4 Nc6 is called the Nimzovich Defense. A book was written on this
by the late Hughe E. Myers of Myers Openings Bulletins. This used to be my
main tournament weapon against 1.e4.

The moves 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 used to be called the Black Knights Tango
and a book was written on this by IM Georgi Orlov. Later the name changed
to Mexican Defense.

The moves 1.d4 Nc6 is called the Full Metal Jacket by master Brian Wall from
the Unorthodox Chess Openings Newsgroup.

Best Regards
DarthMusashi

Fear_ItseIf

Apr 24, 2013

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#39

I think expertise was being sarcastic.

u09090909090909090

May 11, 2013

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#40

Well guys. listen up. it is your choice if you want to use the 1...Nc6 system by FM James. but in my side i Probably like this book. the ideas behind of it. it just depend on you if it will suit in your playing style. NO OFFENSE guys. :))