The English Novelty: Refuting the English

Sort:
Avatar of rychessmaster1

Awhile back, I blogged on this line, but since then I have improved this line. I figured out that black can do better by preventing d4.

For example

Engines hate it, but forget about them. f5 is a move that is hard to deal with.

Avatar of KarasunoCrows

Interesting lines!

Avatar of poucin

U just play Botvinnik set up as black, nothing new!

This is a reliable way to play against english, though move order is a bit strange here...

Avatar of pfren

May I ask why you like this setup?

...c5 and ...f5 do not blend very well together.

I don't understand 11.Bd2, either. It seems to me that the point is allowing Black to play ...d5.

Why not 11.Nc2 at once?

Avatar of Bishop_g5

I would not play 7.a3 first . Since Black's stopping d4 then White's should focus to achieve e4 if possible. I believe starting with 7.d3 and 8.Bg5 followed with Nd5 is the way to play against this setup.

 

Avatar of Bishop_g5
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Why not 6.d3?

 Most likely transpose. White's have no benefit from delaying castling.

Avatar of Bishop_g5
PawnstormPossie wrote:
Bishop_g5 wrote:
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Why not 6.d3?

 Most likely transpose. White's have no benefit from delaying castling.

What is White's "benefit" from castling early?

Complete development. There is no point to delaying castling. Black's haven't played yet e5 weakening the diagonal. There is not available any other forced sequence that will give White's an initiative.

Avatar of poucin

Actually there is some point delaying castling.

For example, this manoeuvre :

White quickly goes for d5 square, preventing d5 from black. Of course, we could play Bg5 before doing this.

Avatar of LTwo

English players don't have to play d4... many people can play d3 and still beat you...

Avatar of Bishop_g5
poucin wrote:

Actually there is some point delaying castling.

For example, this manoeuvre :

White quickly goes for d5 square, preventing d5 from black. Of course, we could play Bg5 before doing this.

There is a significant difference in your move order. You played e5 before f5 and thus change the status of the position. Black's can say now: You know what? Since you played 7.Nd2 why to play f5 and not 7...Ne7 first?

Let's follow the OP original move order and game plan.

Avatar of Bishop_g5
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Okie dokie, but d3 allows the DSB some power to develop. What's the king's rook going to do right now? 

? I don't understand your point. Elaborate.

Avatar of poucin

This doesn't change : we can still play Nd2, this is a standard manoeuvre.

Ok OP proposed f5 before but i don't see the problem for black after playing f5-e5, just transposing into well known waters.

Your plan with Bg5 is normal but not so effective.

For example :

In this game white's play is not very good, but Ulhmann was not so bad in openings...

Avatar of Bishop_g5
poucin wrote:

This doesn't change : we can still play Nd2, this is a standard manoeuvre.

Ok OP proposed f5 before but i don't see the problem for black after playing f5-e5, just transposing into well known waters.

Your plan with Bg5 is normal but not so effective.

For example :

In this game white's play is not very good, but Ulhmann was not so bad in openings...

 

 I am not so sure if White's play first d3 and refrain from castling maneuvering the knight to f1,  Black's will want to play e5 anyway? I am not sure.

In the game you posted White can refrain from 11.Nxf6 and instead play Nd2-Nb1-Nc3 aiming to occupy d5 and play on the Qside with a3 b4 Qb3 e.t.c

Avatar of Bishop_g5
PawnstormPossie wrote:
Bishop_g5 wrote:
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Okie dokie, but d3 allows the DSB some power to develop. What's the king's rook going to do right now? 

? I don't understand your point. Elaborate.

Hmm, you and poucin are much better players than I, but I'll try anyway.

By castling at move 6, doesn't White afford Black some sort of "tempo" in the center to play d6 then e5?

By not castling (6.d3), can Black still afford to play e5? At least so quickly?

 See the board. Black's game plan is to stop d4 at all cost. Attacks the square with c5,Nc6,Bg7 . White supports the square with the Queen and the knight on f3 and that makes e5 a superfluous move strategically already. I have the impression that Black's weakens the structure with this expansion because White's doesn't care to play d4 anyway. The English is very versatile positionally. 

Avatar of Laskersnephew

"Refuting." You keep using this word  I don't think it means what you think it means

Avatar of LTwo
rychessmaster1 wrote:
Laskersnephew wrote:

"Refuting." You keep using this word  I don't think it means what you think it means

It means that this makes the line less effective and not deadly

Misleading title...

Avatar of Laskersnephew
rychessmaster1 wrote:
Laskersnephew wrote:

"Refuting." You keep using this word  I don't think it means what you think it means

It means that this makes the line less effective and not deadly

 

Did anyone here ever think of the English Opening as "deadly? Deadly dull, maybe.

Avatar of LTwo
Laskersnephew wrote:
rychessmaster1 wrote:
Laskersnephew wrote:

"Refuting." You keep using this word  I don't think it means what you think it means

It means that this makes the line less effective and not deadly

 

Did anyone here ever think of the English Opening as "deadly? Deadly dull, maybe.

I do... it is useful in lower club levels, especially when it catches beginners off guard.