http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1036351
This is one of the masterpieces in this opening between two great players of the old time that represented 2 different trends in chess in that time - Wilhelm Steinitz and Mikhail Chigorin.
To be honest i don't like this opening as it is too tactical - one doesn't have other choices but to attack.
Here is also an analysis
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/lolli_attack.html
This is the best analysis I have come across.
If this link does not work, google perreux, click on the first link then click on the "lolli attack".
For the moves after:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 white can go: 8.Qf3 pinning the pawn to the rook instead of retreating.
Also repeating what I said before: The Traxler's counter attack does not work!(I think) after: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 and from computer analysis, it looks dangerous for white but black is down (and will be down) wore than a peice. Black also can't finish off the attack!
AND: Bobby Fischer played the Lolli Attack in many games and he was the World Champion!! I'm not sure if the players were good.
After: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4. "Nd4" was suggested by Dan Heisman to be the best move. After 6.c3, white looks like he/she will win a knight (Attacking the knight and if the knight on d4 moves, the bishop or queen can take the knight on d5) but black has 6... b5 or 6...f6. I will explain this in my next comment.
The basic idea is to attack then keep the momentum going and eventually win. This is the general idea. I'm looking at analysises now.
I can't be bothered.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3! b5! 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg2 9.Qf3 Qxf3 10. Nxf3 Bb7 11.Ke2 exd4 and Dan Heisman gives this a -/+
apparently, 7.Be2 is the best move and wains for white.
Actually, I think the 2 knights in general is not played so much at the top because it's generally acknowleged that black doesn't get enough for the pawn. But yes, if the 2 knights is played it's nearly always with Na5 in mind.
The 2 knight defense is played very often. Especially in junior tournaments and sometimes in adult ones. How I know this? I play in many tournaments.Okay its not that often but its common.
"If the 2 knights is played it's nearly always with Na5 in mind." also incorrect though. ALL my friends played Nxd5 and I did too when I faced the attack. I admit we're all juniors but even Masters and Grandmasters play Nxd5. I lost to 1 of them when they did that. Probably becuase I stuffed it.
Yes the 2 knights is played often, but not at the top. I think at 2600+ it is considered weak.
I stand by my other statement. Na5 is the mainline and Nxd5 is very rare. Juniors will nearly always play Nxd5 because they don't know any better and it's the natural move. When I said nearly always originally, I meant by good players, or even average club level players really. I can't really account for the huge number of beginners who will often tip the scales towards a weak move, for example 3...Bg4 in the Philidor, or 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.Nxe5 in the Ruy Lopez. You wouldnt catch good players playing these moves in serious games, although they could probably play them against us and still win.
Now, can someone explain how the Traxler's Counterattack work?
Cheesehat seems to have either given up on his arguement or is searching for the attack.
Please suggest moves after...1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 I think white wins. 7...Qh4 8.g3. and someone has suggested 7...Qe7!? or ??.
After 8.g3 black usually plays Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 d5, and now the Bg4+ threat has to be met while the Bishop and the Knight are hanging. White still has a slight material advantage but his king has nowhere to go, black pawns dominate the centre and he still has to develop all of his queenside pieces (see position below)
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Don't give your computer too much credit when it comes to gambit play evaluation!
I'm pretty sure the Traxler is unsound. Either take on f7 with the bishop, or take with the knight and then take the bishop on f2 but retreat to g1.
What about 11.Rh4?
It prevents Bg4+ and defends the bishop and after 11...e4+ 12.Kg2 white still seems to be quite safe although they are many threats.
Beware the Terrible Traxler! It takes very solid play by White to defend. There is an excellent series on it under Openings by a NM. I have had a lot of fun with it in Blitz, maybe 5/2 or something.
I know a guy who plays Bg4 in the Philidor. Gets whupped by the 8th moves by good players every time. He is 1500 rated. And he plays the QGA trap where Qf3 wins at least a piece. He calls it the Hippopatamus Gambit. Easy win!
What about 11.Rh4?
It prevents Bg4+ and defends the bishop and after 11...e4+ 12.Kg2 white still seems to be quite safe although they are many threats.
I am not saying there is a winning line for black, I am just saying it's playable. And fun on top of it.
11.Rh4 is of course the best answer, but white is still giving back a minor piece and black grabbed two pawns meanwhile. Hence the material advantage is now quite thin. Plus the white king is still really exposed and at least a draw by perpetual should be easy to obtain for black.
the lolli attack works well
I am not saying there is a winning line for black, I am just saying it's playable. And fun on top of it.
11.Rh4 is of course the best answer, but white is still giving back a minor piece and black grabbed two pawns meanwhile. Hence the material advantage is now quite thin. Plus the white king is still really exposed and at least a draw by perpetual should be easy to obtain for black.
I agree that the position and the material together is quite equal but I beleive white still wins because he/she has quite an advantage.
after the lolli's d4, rather than exd4, computers always seem to play Nxd4. there are ways to get a good position after this, but nothing i've found is any better than the lines after exd4. anyone got any thoughts?