The Sicilian Kan

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Comeaux

I've recently started playing the Sicilian Kan.  A lot of times, my final position will be similar to the Najdorf but it seems like I avoid a lot of the incredibly complex and heavily theorized lines.  I have a question about why Bg5 is so rarely played against the move order I have chosen.  I know it's one of the most complex lines against the Najdorf, so it would seem like in a very similar setup, it would lead to some of the same complications.  Here's my move order.

Here the chess.com game explorer shows 8.a4 - 69 games, 8.Qe2 - 66 games, 8.f4 - 51, 8.a3 -35, 8.Be3 - 31, 8.Re1 - 31, 8.Kh1 - 13, and finally 8.Bg5 - just 8.  It seems like it would be a natural move.  Why is it so rarely played?

Bishop_g5
Comeaux wrote:

I've recently started playing the Sicilian Kan.  A lot of times, my final position will be similar to the Najdorf but it seems like I avoid a lot of the incredibly complex and heavily theorized lines.  I have a question about why Bg5 is so rarely played against the move order I have chosen.  I know it's one of the most complex lines against the Najdorf, so it would seem like in a very similar setup, it would lead to some of the same complications.  Here's my move order.

 

Here the chess.com game explorer shows 8.a4 - 69 games, 8.Qe2 - 66 games, 8.f4 - 51, 8.a3 -35, 8.Be3 - 31, 8.Re1 - 31, 8.Kh1 - 13, and finally 8.Bg5 - just 8.  It seems like it would be a natural move.  Why is it so rarely played?

 

There is no strategic goal to employ 8.Bg5 yet... Black has already played e6, so White doesnt threat Bxf6 damaging the pawn structure and Black has not push e5 as does in the Najdorf creating a hole on d5 where Bg5 puts pressure the defender of this square on f6.

If you push e5 , i bet you will see Bg5 coming.

Yigor

First of all, 6...d6?! (instead of correct 6...Bb7) is (close to be) an inaccuracy and white should play 7. a4! to fully exploit it immediately. blitz.png

ANOK1
[COMMENT DELETED]
Yigor
pfren wrote:
Yigor έγραψε:

First of all, 6...d6?! (instead of correct 6...Bb7) is (close to be) an inaccuracy and white should play 7. a4! to fully exploit it immediately.

You should pass your wisdom to Peter Svidler, who plays 6...d6 almost exclusively here.

 

He plays it only till one of his opponents discovers 7. a4! blitz.pngThis move has the winning score 80% / 20% btw. grin.png

Bishop_g5

Really? Why then don't you show us the line that refutes 6...d6 after 7.a4 b4 8.Na2 e5 ?

Because for what I see there is no clear advantage in Whites position despite the results.

Comeaux
Yigor wrote:

First of all, 6...d6?! (instead of correct 6...Bb7) is (close to be) an inaccuracy and white should play 7. a4! to fully exploit it immediately.

The video I have, which I believe is a copy of a DVD from IM Andrew Martin, doesn't show anything for that.  It does show this game with 8.a4.  



I'm tackling 5.Nc3 first before 5.Bd3, which looks like a headache.  Any move order you find, black ends up with what I think is called a hedgehog setup and when I've played against 5.Bd3 in the past with that setup, it hasn't been easy on me.  This DVD recommends an immediate g6.  Need to take it one at a time though.

Yigor
Bishop_g5 wrote:

Really? Why then don't you show us the line that refutes 6...d6 after 7.a4 b4 8.Na2 e5 ?

 

Because for what I see there is no clear advantage in Whites position despite the results.

 

There is no refutation but white does have a clear advantage. Here's one of possible optimal lines:

 

 

Yigor

Comeaux: After 7. O-O Nf6, the attack 8. a4 is not so incisive anymore. White should attack immediately 7. a4! before castling. blitz.pngwink.png

Bishop_g5

You must be joking! What is Whites clear advantage here ? The two blockaded Bishops ? The Knight on a2 ?

Do you understand what clear advantage means ? It's not what your engine points an algorithm evaluation you know....

Comeaux

First, jengaias, thank you for the answer.  That makes perfect sense.

Yigor, I'm not the same caliber player as you, so I tend to go by a database when I'm in doubt.  If you follow Nf6 instead of e5, it picks up a bunch of more games and black has performed perfectly fine so this is probably how I would handle it.  Honestly, I think more of what I need to focus on in the near future is how to handle the middlegame with a setup with pawns on g6, e6, d6, b6 and a6.  I've gotten really passive in some games and just got rolled over.  If I can't handle that setup, I don't think I can play the Kan at the next level.  

 
edited:  I realize the pawn hangs, but in practice, nobody takes it and the engine is showing black would have an advantage by responding with d5.  Probably should look into that at some point.
Yigor
Bishop_g5 wrote:

You must be joking! What is Whites clear advantage here ? The two blockaded Bishops ? The Knight on a2 ?

 

Do you understand what clear advantage means ? It's not what your engine points an algorithm evaluation you know....

 

Have U noticed that black isn't developped at all ?!? And yes, "my" engine is definitely better than yours that doesn't see obvious things! blitz.pnggrin.pngblitz.png

Bishop_g5

I noticed that Black is undeveloped. Have you noticed how a human been can exploit this fact because I have my engine closed and my human eyes can't see...??

Yigor
Bishop_g5 wrote:

I noticed that Black is undeveloped. Have you noticed how a human been can exploit this fact because I have my engine closed and my human eyes can't see...??

 

Well, personally, in my final position I'd prefer to play as white.  U exaggerated a bit, LSB isn't blocked. happy.png The knight on a2 should be transferred back to the game, that's true. But white has enough tempi since black's kingside is totally undevelopped.

Yigor

Comeaux: No problem, if U feel more comfortable with mainstream variations having an abundant quantity of games in databases, that's a good choice. wink.png

Bishop_g5

White has enough tempi to do what? Fifteen minutes now I am asking what is Whites plan to prove he's clear advantage as you point out and I don't get the tiny answer on this!!

Do you know why??

Because you have no clue and you rely on computer moves to prove your point! That's why...

One inaccurate move by White is enough for Black to equalize the piece activity. How possible is this in a game between two humans? Have you thought about it before you claim a clear advantage?

Clear advantage means a strategicall position with long turn weaknesses that can't be defended or equalize the activity. Do you see something similar here?

Yigor
Bishop_g5 wrote:

White has enough tempi to do what? Fifteen minutes now I am asking what is Whites plan to prove he's clear advantage as you point out and I don't get the tiny answer on this!!

Do you know why??

Because you have no clue and you rely on computer moves to prove your point! That's why...

One inaccurate move by White is enough for Black to equalize the piece activity. How possible is this in a game between two humans? Have you thought about it before you claim a clear advantage?

Clear advantage means a strategicall position with long turn weaknesses that can't be defended or equalize the activity. Do you see something similar here?

 

If U know something better than me, why do U ask me? Are U focused on the chess or in proving that my chess knowledge is close to zero (IM pfren already made me this compliment)? I'm a mathematician and not afraid of numbers close to zero. LMAO grin.png

 

P.S. Btw I can rely on whatever I want allowed by chess.com. What's your problem? U can rely on engines too if U find it useful. There is Stockfish 8 here especially provided for this purpose.  If U obstinate and wanna show only your own chess knowledges, it's your choice. Nobody is obliged to follow U.

Bishop_g5

I am trying to understand what a hell are you talking about ???

You are the one who came down here saying that 6...d6 it's a mistake losing to 7.a4!

You are the one who based this statement in database facts that can't stand alone in the field.

You are the one who claimed a clear advantage for White.

...and now I am the one who's fault to asking you , WHY ?

Come on Yuri...perhaps you should calm down a bit and see chess with out numbers in your head!

wfloh
I feel black made too many pawn moves too. In that given position by Yigor, a straightforward, simple plan is to play Qd2, force through b4, and then queen the a-pawn or b-pawn, whichever black prefers to allow. Black is not only behind in development, his position is cramped. This makes it difficult to get pieces over to the queen side, so the loss of tempi is just going to magnify rather than diminish. Just my 2 cts.
Cherub_Enjel

*Black's lack of development in Open Sicilians, and especially the Kan, is not a problem in most lines. The point is that instead of activating his/her own pieces, white restricts the opponent's pieces. These are equal ideas in the opening, and black is able to do it well in the Kan.

This is basically the main idea of the Kan.

*The Kan is a pretty good variation for beginners to play, for the Sicilian, since white's attacks aren't as dangerous as in the Dragon/Najdorf, etc. I also find the theory you have to know is considerably less than in other Open Sicilians. 

*I would play over master games of Kan players - the typical ideas are very much repeatable in many positions.