The unknown Caro-Kann-oyance

I've checked a number of books and videos on the Caro-Kann (well, more videos than books), but I've never ever seen this line get discussed, even though it seems obvious to me that it bears at least some thought:

Any additional info and/or insight you might have to share about this line?

Very interesting. I can’t say I know enough about the CK to have an educated opinion, but I’m interested in seeing what the stronger players think.

The Opening Book on OpeningTree.com, which is based on Lichess games rated 1600+, shows white winning 55% in this position and black winning 37% in this position. So it's definitely not looking good for black. The engine still says it's fairly equal.

I'm not rated high enough (~1400) to give a reliable response, but Caro-Kann is my main line so I'm intrigued enough to see if I can find some answers. 

edit: after playing out some lines, my best guesses on why this position is bad for black:

• White can castle both ways and needs only 1 move to prepare each one
• Black should probably castle kingside and needs 3 moves to prepare
• The Queen is in a slightly awkward position
• Which doesn't allow for many mistakes and even allows white to play moves like Na3
• I couldn't identify obvious weaknesses for white's position

I do agree though that it's not that obvious.

Another edit: Found this. This specific line is mentioned in chapter 2. 

Can I just say? I love your profile pic!

Hey, that's a great find!

So apparently, 5... e5!? isn't strictly too bad, although White retains a small advantage? Got it, nothing to worry about theoretically, but it kinda might present a shock to the uninitiated (hence the '!?' annotation). That's all I needed to know, thank you very much!

I found this line thru move 8 in an old Caro book (Play the Caro-Kann, Egon Varnusz, 1991) and he states advantage to White with the comment " Black has no compensation for the isolated d-pawn".  Looks to be a quote from Botvinnik, so that is good enough for me!!!  I do wonder if it would work in blitz, though.

Fbrown60, my guess is that 5. Bb5 moves the Bishop twice in a row, and the positional compensation for the lost tempo is non-existent after something like 5... Qb6 or even 5... Qa5+, when Black emerges with equality despite any and all complications White can cause with 6. Nc3, 6. c4 or 6. a4. The Chess.com game analysis engine says 5... Nf6 is even better than that, but I'm not gonna pretend I know how fundamentally big that slight advantage for Black really is. Also, trading on c6 would give even more advantage to Black, bolstering his d5-pawn after ...bxc6 and giving up the Bishop pair.

As for the option of not trading the pawns after 5... e5, Black will be able to play 6... e4, and then, even if the Bishop has already been moved from d3 and White plays f3, Black can follow up with ...f5 and get a big centre in the style of the Classical French... and that's one thing you DON'T want in general, much less as White.

How very Botvinnik of a thing to say, indeed! I can see how this line would get skipped for generations if the Patriarch so much as hinted at this evaluation... but then again, he's at least slightly oldskool for today's standards. People used to avoid the Maroczy Bind as Black, like it was winning for White by default (and then Larsen happened), people used to keep their dark-squared Bishop in the KID at all costs (and then Wojtaszek-Caruana happened this January), etc. Mainly etc. xD

I ran that position on Stockfish for a few minutes, up to depth 24, and it showed 5... e5 as the first choice...and then would switch between e5 and Nf6...just an interesting sidenote.  You may be right with your examples....no one cared about the Berlin until Kramnik revived it.  But e5 seems opposite of what a typical Caro player would be seeking: a quiet or closed position usually leading to several exchanges and then landing in the endgame, which its purpose seems to be.  Not alot of flash or excitement in the Caro, for sure.

The super early e5 doesn't look "bad" but it just seems hard to play for a win in this variation. Poor pawn structure with queens exchanged and so on.

as a caro-kann player you have to be careful I the opening

in this position it seems there is no threats fro h4 so most will play e6.

i prefer to play h6 instead

I really don't find the panov to be much of an issue. It's not even that sharp, there are only a few variations and most of them draw easily. You reach an endgame quite fast. I prefer and am talking about the Bg4 line.

Not sure to be honest, I don't really find any particular variation the most troubling, once you look at them you will find that there's always a solid reply for black. It will come down to which you personally know the least. The Tal variation in the advanced can catch people off-guard just like other things can. 

I personally love playing the advanced as black.

I just love the advanced. Usually you get to fight against their d4 pawn and sometimes others as well. They have space but we have amazing play. 

Consider this for context: I don't even play 1. e4, I just wanna have a reliable setup/weapon against 1. d4 c5 and not have it be 2. d5, as theoretically sound as it might be (because I prefer advocating the Benonis as Black and thus hate playing against them as White). If I play 2. e3, then 2... cxd4 3. exd4 would land me in an Exchange Caro-Kann, and as preferable to an Exchange Slav as it might be for me, I'm still finding it kinda... well, dry in some cases.

The Caro-Kann is my mainstay as black against 1. e4.

My impression of this 5... e5 line? It looks pretty dubious. White can probably force two sets of minor pieces to get traded, and has a dead easy time setting up a blockade on d4. Black ends up with a classically bad IQP position, since he simply doesn't have the piece activity that would compensate for it.

Hey, that the same link Duckfest posted! It looks like Neiksans' coverage of the Exchange Caro-Kann is unparalleled.

As white, I love getting a Benoni structure where I haven't played c4. I feel it benefits white to leave the pawn on c2.

I know, the idea is to use a Knight to occupy the c4-square and have an early pressure against the weak d6-pawn. That's not what I feel too uncomfortable doing, though: my real problem is the Closed/Czech Benoni. If I'm going to play those positions, I might as well advocate them from the Black side... but then again, some positions are so boring, I might lose them from both sides just because I can't be arsed to manoeuvre too much on a given day. xD

And yeah, I know that's about motivation from Black's side primarily, but also, after 1. d4 c5, my opponent might play 2. d3 or 2. c3 himself. So many positions I don't quite like from either side, it seems.