Traxler discussion

Right, so then the real novelty is 15.d3, played instead of 15.c3

My book uses analysis from Estrin's book, The Two Knights Defense published in 1983, so it is a bit more recent, although not as in depth as your manuscript.

Well, my attempt to revive 13.Nc3 managed to get down to an opposite bishops endgame with white having an extra pawn.  My new move was 15.Rxe4, aiming for the better endgame.  I checked the other lines and all I could manage were draws.  Here is a game I played with my 15.Rxe4 move.  Objectively, I am not sure whether or not this is better than the 16...Qd5 line, but I think it is.

I think ECO is one of the best sources in the traxler. Also Batsfords modern chess openings can be considered

If he changes his mind between 1978 and 1983 in terms of what moves are promising in the various situations, then always take the later one. Presumably he was aware of his previous book. :-)

The whole theoretical point of the Traxler, in my opinion, is to either get a draw or win. For example, in a correspondence game, black would never play it if he needed to win.

Estrin gives quite a few lines with c3.  My problem with c3 is that it is too slow.  In addition, it weakens d2, leaves a hole on d3, takes away the c3 square from the knight, and does not help the bishop.  The only thing it does is attack the queen.  In my opinion, that is a error.

My instinct was to move 14.Bb3 and anwser 14...Rxf7 with 15.Rf4.  My computer recommends 14.Be2.

Now for the line

13.Qh5 Be6 14.Be2 Rxf7 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Rf4 Rxf4 17.gxf4 Qf6 18.d3 Nd4 19.Bd1 exd3 20.Qxd3 Bf5 21.Qa3+ Ke8 22.Nd2 Bxc2 23.Bxc2 Nxc2 24.Qa4+ Qc6 25.Qxc6+ bxc6 26.Rb1 when white has the better endgame.

You are very welcome.  I was looking for a substantive discussion myself and nobody was looking at the lines I knew and loved.  In addition, I wanted to get to the bottom of the issue with Nxf7 to see if white has any chances.  Unfortunately, other than a few books or articles, it does not get the attention it deserves.  Anyways, when more people respond, this thread becomes more interesting and conclusive.  Maybe a few more people will join the discussion and become Traxler players themselves.

I concur that this has been an excellent thread.

Re: Conquiscador's point that Nxf7 has not had the attention it deserves - yes, I think it has to be honest, simply because Bxf7 is a much, much safer way to play for a reasonable advantage. Nxf7 is certainly extremely interesting, but in some ways extremely unnecessary.

And to that point, the merits (or lack) of 9... d5, discussed in some posts above, is in some sense moot because of the presence of 9... Nd4. Black would be playing 9... d5 only because he thought there was more than a draw to be had from the position.

I thought that it's pretty common knowledge amongst Traxler devotees that in general 5.Nxf7?! favours Black whereas 5.Bxf7+!? favours White, even though the complications are almost endless in both variations.

SteveC, that's not the sentiment in my book, since so many lines in the Nxf7 line end in a draw.

That may be true, but there are many lines in the Nxf7 variation which have not been worked out or remain unclear. 

...and as ozzie_c_cobblepot has said, most of the lines end in draws.

"As you'd expect, Nxf7 has seen a lot more action in the correspondence world.  The Traxler has always been on my bucket list of openings so I've made an effort to follow it even though I know I'll probably never play it (outside a thematic event anyway).  I've got reams and reams of analysis that I've picked from countless different sources (books, forum posts, annotated games etc) so I'll be posting more as soon as I make sense of it and do a quick blundercheck."

Great!  I cannot wait to have more indepth analysis of this variation.  The more the merrier!

I'm also looking forward to your analysis, Gonnosuke.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to recap every so often what the most critical lines are.

Good idea. 

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5

and 2 minutes per move, Fritz 11 gives as best play by both:

5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 Bc5 8.Bf7+ Kf8 9.b4 Nxb4 10.Ba3 Nxe4
11.Bb3 Nf6 12.Qf3

with a score after 2 minutes of +1.01

I am updating the current critical lines.  I bolded the new moves in the different variations to make it clear where we are at.

7.Ke3 lines

A:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 d5 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3 dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7 15.Rxe4 Qf6 16.Rf4 Qg6 17.Qxg6 Nxg6 18.Nh6+ gxh6 19.Rxc4 Rf7 20.d3 h5 21.Bg5

B:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 d5 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3 dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7 15.Qxh7+ Kxf7 16.Rxe4 Qf6 17.Rxc4 Ke8 18.Qh5+ Kd8 19.Qe2

C:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 d5 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3 dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7 15.b3 Rxf7 16.Qxh7+ Kf8 17.Nxe4 Ke8 18.c3 Qe5

D:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 d5 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3 dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7 15.b3 Bf5

E:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 d5 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Qh5 Be6 14.Be2 Rxf7 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Rf4 Rxf4 17.gxf4 Qf6 18.d3 Nd4 19.Bd1 exd3 20.Qxd3 Bf5 21.Qa3+ Ke8 22.Nd2

7.Kg1 Lines

A:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Kg1 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.Nxh8 d5 10.Qf3 Qd4+ 11.Qe3 Nxh1 12.Qxd4 Nxd4 13.Bb3 Be6 14.Kxh1 0-0-0 15.d3

6.Kf1 will be the next thing we will go through once we address the critical lines.

I analysised your suggestion, which is the same as the critical line "B" under the 7.Ke3 variations.

It looks like white has a great position, but it turns out that white is actually winning.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 d5 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 0-013.Nc3 dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7 15.Qxh7+ Kxf7 16.Rxe4 Qf6 17.Rxc4 Ke8 18.Qh5+ Kd8 19.Qe2 Bd7 20.d3 Nf5 21.Bf4 Bc6+ 22.Kg1 Rh8 23.Ne4 Qxb2 24.Rf1 g6 25.g4 Nd4 26.Bg5+ Kc8 27.Qe3 Nxc2 28.Qc5

White does not waste time developing and black's pieces are uncordinated.  White's extra piece places black in considerable danger.