Traxler discussion

Hmm, I don't have anything on b3 in the Bg4 line of Kf1. I'll look at the 8... Nd4 line of Kf1 right now, though. I'm going to remove much of it to keep it from getting too long. This was also in my analysis I did about a year ago. Against 8... Nd4, I have 9. h3 as my main line, but since 9. d6 is the move in question I'll post that line only. I have some analysis on 9...Qxd6, but I had 9...cxd6 as the main line so I'll post only that as well. I have:

8...Nc6-d4 9.d5-d6 c7xd6 10.c2-c3 10...Bc8-g4 11.Qd1–a4+ Ke8-f8 12.c3xd4 e5xd4 13.Kf1xf2 Nf6-e4+ 14.Kf2-g1 Qe7-h4 with an attack that leads to perpetual

a) 10.h2-h3 Bf2-g3 11.c2-c3 Nd4-f5 12.Bc4-f7+ Ke8-d8 13.Qd1–b3 d6-d5 14.Nb1–a3 Qe7-c5 with an attack that I concluded would lead to an endgame where Black has an extra pawn but White can probably draw.

b) 10.Kf1xf2 Bc8-g4 11.Qd1–f1 0-0-0 12. Nb1-a3 d6-d5 13. h2-h3 Nf6-e4+ with another typical position with a huge attack.

b1) 11.Qd1–g1 Nf6-e4+ 12.Kf2-e3 Qe7-g5+ leads to mate

b2) 11.Qd1–e1 Nd4xc2 12.Qe1–f1 Nc2xa1 13.b2-b3 0–0–0 14.Bc1–b2 d6-d5 unclear

b1) 12.h2-h3 Rd8-f8 13.Kf2-g1 Nf6-e4 14.Nh8-f7 Bg4-e6 where many of my lines lead to a winning position for Black but in two lines White escapes to a perpetual

b2) 12.Nh8-f7 d6-d5 13.Nb1–c3 Qe7xf7 with a dangerous, unclear position. My main line leads to a drawish endgame.

b3) 12.Kf2-g1 Rd8-f8 13.h2-h3 Nf6-e4 14.Qf1–e1 Bg4-f3 with a very, very dangerous attack

Let me know if you have any questions or if you want me to post the end of a line.

EDIT: Aah, you can't see it! Let me figure out what's going on. Also, I'll take a look at Conquiscador's post he made while I was writing mine. EDIT2: OK, fixed now. For some reason, before it just showed b1) b2) b3) and didn't show the actual lines.

OK, in 7. Kg1 line B, if anyone finds anything that busts Black let me know but I couldn't see anything. Of course, if line B is good for Black then line A doesn't matter.

6. Kf1 line- see my last post

7. Ke3 line A: Black's pawn structure is bad, but material is even and opposite colored Bishops are on the board. This endgame looks tough but playable for Black. If you don't like the look of that, may I suggest 16...Qc6+ followed by 17...Qe8 pinning the Knight? After all, once you round up the Knight you're up a pawn, although White can probably regain it while you get the Knight.

7. Ke3 line F: After 13. Bb3, is something wrong with simply playing 13...Rxf7? You have two pawns for a piece and White's King is still under siege.

After 9...cxd6, you did not mention 10.Be2 Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bb6 12.d4 Bg4 13.Qb5+ Nd7 14.Qc4 and white is much better.

I think white can play 18.Nh6+ gxh6 19.Qxe8 there, and the endgame is similarly tough for black.

mathijs: This way Black is up a pawn, so the endgame seems drawish because of the opposite colored Bishops and poor pawn structure.

Conquiscador: 10. Be2 Qf8, where White has a variety of options. What could White do to get a winning game there?

Actually though, 16...Qc6 (in the Ke3 A line) might be a very nice and subtle improvement. It either lures the white king to h2, which is a significant improvement in the ending, or it allows a very interesting queen sacrifice (all courtesy of Fritz):

16...Qc6+

a) 17.Kg1 Qb6+ 18.Kh2 Qg6 19.Qxg6 Nxg6 20.Nh6+ gxh6 21.Rxc4 Be6! when 22.Rxc7 fails to 22...Rf2+ with a strong attack, e.g.: 23.Kg1 Raf8 24.Ne4 Rf1+ 25.Kh2 Bd5 26.d3 Bxe4 27.dxe4 R8f2+ 28.Kh3 Rh1 29.Kg4 Ne5#.

b) (Edit, forgot to insert 17.Kg1 Qb6) 18.Rf2!? Bf5 19.Nd5! Qxf2! (19...Qc5? 20.Nf6+) 20.Kxf2 Nxd5 21.Nh6+ gxh6 22.Kg1 Rae8 with compensation.

So black seems ok in Ke3 A.

Edit: Hopefully a moot point, but in the 17...Qe8 line, after 20.Rxc4 material is exactly the same as after 16.Qg6. There is only a difference in piece placement, which doesn't seem to make a real difference.

16...Qc6+ is a great improvement

17.Rf3 Qe8 18.Nh6+ gxh6 19.Rxf8+ Qxf8 20.d3 cxd3 21.Bxh6 Qf7 22.Qg5+ Qg6 23.Qxe7 Qxh6 24.Qd8+ Qf8 25.Qd5+ Qf7 26.cxd3 Qxd5 27.Nxd5 c6 28.Ne7+ Kf7 29.Nxc8 Rxc8 30.Rh1 Kg6=

mathijs, you're right, I did miss Rxc4 at the end- I only looked at Rf3 instead of King moves. By the way, I think I found a reason Qc6 is much better. We don't have to defend the c7-pawn with the King on h2. After we exchange Queens on g6 and White plays Nh6+ gxh6 Rxc4, Be6 Rxc7 Rf2+ followed by Raf8 is good. EDIT Mathijs pointed this out earlier.

That's what I pointed out in variation a), post 93, sirDavid.

I think that my book line is an error.

I keep running into drawing lines, I am trying to see if I can get a large material advantage in the 10.c3 variation.

Ah, so you did. Sorry about that!

Man, that is a robust variation!  Every attempt I make to knock it down has black come back with a massive attack or a draw.

100 posts!!!

Thank you everyone for making the most in-depth thread on the Traxler! 

Your help goes a long way towards a conclusive answer to the Nxf7 variation.

Yeah. I think this would be good to play against someone quite a bit stronger than you, but not somebody weaker since there are so many draws. I think the real test is Bxf7+, though.

Why not play 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 or Bd5? I know this thread is not about that, but it appears less dangerous for white. (as it said above)

Well, I was hoping to get to the bottom of Nxf7 before I take a look at Bxf7.  Nxf7 has never received the attention it deserves.  Anyways, I wanted to see if white can manage to get some advantage in the Nxf7 variation.

I think that's what we're doing once we're satisfied about our analysis of Nxf7. Black will play Rf8, Qe8, Qg6, d6, and Bg4 and try to attack a pawn down.

I think I have found the move necessary to handle your variation "B"  SirDavid, in the 6.Kf1 variation.

8...Nd4 9.d6 cxd6 10.Kxf2! Bg4 11.Qf1 0-0-0 12.Nf7 d5 13.Kg1! Rf8 14.c3 Nc2 15.Na3 Nxa1 16.Bxd5 Nxd5 17.Qc4+

The complications in that variation are mind-boggling.

10. Kxf2 Bg4 11. Qf1 0-0-0 12. Nf7 d5 is in my analysis, but I don't have Kg1. So it looks like it leads to White being a pawn up in the endgame... I'll have to see what I can find.

Hmm, not much. Maybe you're right that Qxd6 is better. Are there any critical lines there?