What do you think of the Colle System

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Avatar of keep1teasy
ChesswithNickolay wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

The Stonewall doesn't lose though. I could post two recent 3-day Daily games, one a win for myself as black and one a loss, as a pointer to the kind of mistakes either side can make. Both against someone 50 points or so stronger than me.

It's either your 2 daily games or the database and my GM coach who trained a world champion. Your pick.

Magnus carlsen once said that to get to wesley so's level you only needed tactics, but to get to world championship contender level you'd need more.

Avatar of Optimissed
B1ZMARK wrote:
ChesswithNickolay wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

In context, what's the Stonewall Attack? How does it appear to you?

Overly aggressive. In most Colle positions, f4 is rarely played.

lol

it's regarded as black's best dutch for its solidity. 

 


And this is how to beat the Stonewall, but it still only works when white diverts his rook into an attack. The problem with the rook lift is that you can't do it if you have an escape hole for your king, but if you don't have an escape hole, this can happen. The machine gave me 92.8% and the Review only about 86. I think the accuracy should be between 97 and 100 but maybe that's a bit overly 'opeful.

Avatar of keep1teasy

I mean the general way to beat the stonewall is to maintain tight control over e5 if possible, sometimes white wants to play cd5 but a lot of the times he should simply expand on the queenside at an opportune moment. If black's dark squared bishop is traded off then he's usually worse at best.

A kingside attack in the stonewall usually involves pawns, and not using pieces only like what your opponent did in the game.

Avatar of Optimissed
B1ZMARK wrote:

I mean the general way to beat the stonewall is to maintain tight control over e5 if possible, sometimes white wants to play cd5 but a lot of the times he should simply expand on the queenside at an opportune moment. If black's dark squared bishop is traded off then he's usually worse at best.

A kingside attack in the stonewall usually involves pawns, and not using pieces only like what your opponent did in the game.

Not control over e5 but control over e4. Controlling e5 isn't so important in the initial stages. The Qc8 move has a triple purpose. It supports Na6 and the e6-f5 diagonal but also it makes a Ne5 ineffective. Although I've found that it's just as playable if black allows a Ne5 to fork black's Q and remaining B, because white just wastes moves and the Ne5 is potentially more useful in attack against f7 than swapping itself for the e7 bishop.

So the strategy for black is to swap off the light squared bishops and then get knight control over e4 by rerouting the a6 knight. White's remaining bishop is weak and slow to get into the game. It's white who is struggling to draw, as happened here.

Avatar of Naronita

I play the Colle usually is my main weapon.

Just a few examples: https://www.chess.com/c/Kbodjcpv

Avatar of keep1teasy
Optimissed wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:

I mean the general way to beat the stonewall is to maintain tight control over e5 if possible, sometimes white wants to play cd5 but a lot of the times he should simply expand on the queenside at an opportune moment. If black's dark squared bishop is traded off then he's usually worse at best.

A kingside attack in the stonewall usually involves pawns, and not using pieces only like what your opponent did in the game.

Not control over e5 but control over e4. Controlling e5 isn't so important in the initial stages. The Qc8 move has a triple purpose. It supports Na6 and the e6-f5 diagonal but also it makes a Ne5 ineffective. Although I've found that it's just as playable if black allows a Ne5 to fork black's Q and remaining B, because white just wastes moves and the Ne5 is potentially more useful in attack against f7 than swapping itself for the e7 bishop.

So the strategy for black is to swap off the light squared bishops and then get knight control over e4 by rerouting the a6 knight. White's remaining bishop is weak and slow to get into the game. It's white who is struggling to draw, as happened here.

I was talking about a Dutch stonewall not a reversed stonewall, hence e5 and all the other stuff about dark squares bishops. But yes

Avatar of tygxc

The Colle is aggressive
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1279187 

Avatar of Optimissed
B1ZMARK wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:

I mean the general way to beat the stonewall is to maintain tight control over e5 if possible, sometimes white wants to play cd5 but a lot of the times he should simply expand on the queenside at an opportune moment. If black's dark squared bishop is traded off then he's usually worse at best.

A kingside attack in the stonewall usually involves pawns, and not using pieces only like what your opponent did in the game.

Not control over e5 but control over e4. Controlling e5 isn't so important in the initial stages. The Qc8 move has a triple purpose. It supports Na6 and the e6-f5 diagonal but also it makes a Ne5 ineffective. Although I've found that it's just as playable if black allows a Ne5 to fork black's Q and remaining B, because white just wastes moves and the Ne5 is potentially more useful in attack against f7 than swapping itself for the e7 bishop.

So the strategy for black is to swap off the light squared bishops and then get knight control over e4 by rerouting the a6 knight. White's remaining bishop is weak and slow to get into the game. It's white who is struggling to draw, as happened here.

I was talking about a Dutch stonewall not a reversed stonewall, hence e5 and all the other stuff about dark squares bishops. But yes

Oh right. Got you.

Avatar of Optimissed
ChesswithNickolay wrote:

Any opening can be considered "Aggressive" following your methodology. 

Ask yourself .... is the Semi-Slav potentially aggressive? The point is that it's so compact and flexible. The c1 bishop acts like an extra, moveable pawn that eventually becomes a bishop but the fact that white doesn't develop it outside the pawn line means there are no targets for black.

Avatar of tygxc

#81
The Colle is very aggressive. White gets a violent attack once he has pushed e3-e4 after proper preparation. Here is another example:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1007871 

Avatar of keep1teasy
ChesswithNickolay wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
ChesswithNickolay wrote:

Any opening can be considered "Aggressive" following your methodology. 

Ask yourself .... is the Semi-Slav potentially aggressive? The point is that it's so compact and flexible. The c1 bishop acts like an extra, moveable pawn that eventually becomes a bishop but the fact that white doesn't develop it outside the pawn line means there are no targets for black.

It is sometimes really aggressive, the most aggressive opening in chess!

colle is literally a reversed semi slav, so congratulations, you've played yourself.

Avatar of Optimissed

In what way **isn't** it a reversed Semi-Slav?

Avatar of Optimissed

1. d4 ... d5 2. Nf3
is the correct move order for the Colle and black probably plays 2. Nf6, because white could be heading for a London or a queens gambit.

So  ...Nf6
3. e3 and now black may go c5. Speaking for myself, I would play c5 at that point most of the time. Occasionally I may play e6 but c5 seems a good move and I do tend to play it. It being a good move.

If black doesn't play good moves though, isn't white in a better position still? The idea of the Colle is that depending on the position, white either prepares e4 or prepares an attack on black's king after black goes 0-0. Sometimes both. The Botvinnick Variation isn't the only aggressive variation of the Semi-Slav, after all.

Avatar of keep1teasy

 

here's the colle setup and semi slav setup. Oh boy. I can't wait to start listing the differences!

Avatar of Optimissed

Yes there's no comparison at all. Completely different. Black's winning hands down too.

Avatar of keep1teasy
Preusseagro wrote:

Has someone notice that alot of black defences in generall dont wokr for white very good?

They don't aim for an opening advantage, sure, but that doesn't really matter all that much.

Avatar of Optimissed
Preusseagro wrote:

Has someone notice that alot of black defences in generall dont wokr for white very good?

The London used to be mainly a defence for black against the King's Indian Attack.

Avatar of PILOTOXOMXD

London is just annoying

Avatar of PILOTOXOMXD

and to all london players, plz play something thats actually interesting and not just random bishop moves

Avatar of keep1teasy
PILOTOXOMXD wrote:

and to all london players, plz play something thats actually interesting and not just random bishop moves

cope + stay mad + skill issue