my bad, i was thinking of 1.e4 c5 2.nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd 4.qxd
What is the best way to punish this opening?
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White is fine in this position and it's a solid opening. You can't punish it.
I just bothered to check a database about this position...the results have been disasterous for white, he is scoring at best 30% in this line...LOL.
Mar 15, 2013
0
#6
In how many games? The statistics don't count for much if the games are few. Of course this is not a critical opening variation but it is still quite playable.
Fear_ItseIf wrote:
Probably nc6 getting a development advantage. The line itseif is actually quite alright and has even had a few outings at top level recently. I think Kamsky and Carlsen (??) have played it among others.
The idea is to get a maroczy without the bad LSB, usually it will trade for a knight on c6.
isnt that after 1.e4 c5 2.nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ ?
i don't think ive ever seen a GM game in this line, probably for good reason.
asmund_hammerstad wrote:
In how many games? The statistics don't count for much if the games are few. Of course this is not a critical opening variation but it is still quite playable.
according to chesslive.de, over 1500 games have been played. Unfortuantely there is no rating filter though.
Mar 15, 2013
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#9
I found only around 90 games in Mega Database 2012. And most are low rated players so can't use this statistics for anything special. Just play it yourselves and then you can try to pass a judgement.
Qxd4 only makes sense if Black's played ...d6, so ...Nc6 can be met by Bb5; see: http://www.chess.com/opening/eco/B53_Sicilian_Defense_Chekhover_Variation
Lots of games by GM Yandimerov: http://www.365chess.com/search_result.php?search=1&m=7&n=232&wid=9838
Carlsen played something similar against Gawain Jones at the London Classic last year. Here's a 40min analysis from Kingscrusher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnke-Fghms&list=UUDUDDmslypVXYoUsZafHSUQ&index=1, Sicilian, Ckekhover Variation B53.
Obviously I think you attack the Queen and continue to attack the queen, for example if 3...Nc6 4.Qe3 Nf6 5.--- Ng4. If he retreats the queen back to the d1-square you have taken over White's roll as the leader in development.
Other than that I would be thinking about how to remove his central pawn while installing my own pawn center while his pawn centre is unsupported by his minor pieces. White can play c4 to stop this.
(I have never played this opening or seen it played, other than the Carlsen game I linked.)
Rybka left for a minute or so gave a very weird move sequence as the best continuation:
Also, at all times, Rybka scores this position as white being ahead...
Looks ok to me -- doesn't seem to achieve anything special, but I think white's position is much too safe to be in any trouble. Even though black wins a tempo, it is, after all, the only piece he has gotten out still, and it will take him a while to get out the rest of them, so it's not like he gets a huge lead in development.
I think there is a similar line to this that occasionally gets played at master level: 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Qxd4, although this move order may make slightly more sense as at least 4...Nc6 can be met by 5 Bb5.
"I don't want a mile long text analysis, some 10 move analysis of all of white's plausible options would do just fine"
Well, the last thing I would want is memorizing 10 moves of soulless computer like moves just to know how to play against 2 d4. It still seems like you're in that "must get an opening advantage mentality," apparently not as white, but in this case, as black?
I don't think it's appropriate to ask how to refute this or anything like that -- even 1 e4 e5 2 Qh5 is probably fine for white. It's just that black will perhaps be under marginally less pressure than he usually would be -- nice to have, but it doesn't mean you can suddenly mate your opponent against reasonable play.
Mar 15, 2013
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#15
Pete Tamburo said if you move the queen out you want to leave it out. Seems that black is ahead in development. what do you have for breaking opening guidlines?
Actually I would disagree that black is ahead in development. Even if white retreated his queen to d1, although black has a knight out on c6, central pawn moves count too -- the fact that white has played d4 means that his c1 bishop can move out without being blocked; the fact that e4 has been played means the same for white's f1 bishop. So these central pawn moves are in themselves developmental moves, since in order to get a bishop out you must move either a knight pawn or center pawn -- something black will have to do soon.
Looking at it that way, development seems about equal.
Nonetheless, white doesn't seem like he can do anything too amazing; the point is that white will not get mated just because he played 3 Qxd4.
Elubas wrote:
Actually I would disagree that black is ahead in development. Even if white retreated his queen to d1, although black has a knight out on c6, central pawn moves count too -- the fact that white has played d4 means that his c1 bishop can move out without being blocked; the fact that e4 has been played means the same for white's f1 bishop. So these central pawn moves are in themselves developmental moves, since in order to get a bishop out you must move either a knight pawn or center pawn.
Looking at it that way, development seems about equal.
EASY equality in the opening isn't really to whites taste or at least to any strong players taste
Well, there are many exceptions to that -- the most notable one is Magnus Carlsen, who seems quite content with an equal position as white as long as it's to his taste -- usually he wants something fresh that hasn't been extensively analyzed (something he's said in his own words before). For instance he was willing to play 2 d3 against the french pretty recently -- maybe he had some ideas with it but I don't think he felt he had to get an advantage to be satisfied. Even most high level players will occasionally pick lines allowing pretty easy equality, just hoping to outplay their opponents later.
So it depends on what you want -- being able to play the position well, being familiar with the position, will probably allow you to play pretty good moves, using less time on the clock, which could make up for the absence of an advantage.
So when I study openings, I am in part trying to find strong continuations, but I'm also just trying to be familiar with the sorts of positions that will be likely to occur -- I won't freak if in some random line white might not be able to secure an edge if I'm comfortable with the style of that position.
In any case, I'm not arguing that 3 Qxd4 is desirable -- I don't think it is, so if that's what you're arguing, I agree. I'm simply arguing that 3 Qxd4 does not in itself lead to terrible consequences for white.
Mar 15, 2013
0
#19
This is where you need to know general opening principles instead of "book" lines. As you've probably noticed not everyone obligingly plays the correct "book" moves all the time not to mention all those openings you have to face that you're clueless about (me too, don't take this personally)
The sad reality is that not every substandard opening has a definitive refutation guaranteeing you a forced win or even a major advantage. Sometimes you just have to focus on developing your pieces correctly instead of dogmatically assuming that every opening mistake your opponent makes must be punished decisively ASAP. It's only taken me most of my life to realize this, hopefully you're not as slow a learner as I am
Sorry to be so vague here, but you seem to have gotten a good deal of specific analysis in reply to your question, so I'm trying to take a different approach. Check out this blog (even though you probably know most of what's in it already) I find it helpful to keep me focused on the basics of all openings
http://www.chess.com/blog/NimzoRoy/chess-opening-principles?_domain=old_blog_host&_parent=old_frontend_blog_view
Elubas wrote:
Actually I would disagree that black is ahead in development. Even if white retreated his queen to d1, although black has a knight out on c6, central pawn moves count too -- the fact that white has played d4 means that his c1 bishop can move out without being blocked; the fact that e4 has been played means the same for white's f1 bishop. So these central pawn moves are in themselves developmental moves, since in order to get a bishop out you must move either a knight pawn or center pawn -- something black will have to do soon.
Looking at it that way, development seems about equal.
Nonetheless, white doesn't seem like he can do anything too amazing; the point is that white will not get mated just because he played 3 Qxd4.
I believe that according to My System by Nimzowitsch, pawn moves should not be considered developmental moves by themselves, but rather a move that will help development. Therefore black is ahead in development, but will have to spend more time to get the rest of his pieces out, so his development lead will quickly vanish, leaving an equal position.
However, IMO if white doesn't get a development lead he has no reason to give up the center pawn for the c pawn.
I don't want a mile long text analysis, some 10 move analysis of all of white's plausible options would do just fine...I know this kind of opening is quite unrecommendable, and obviously 3.Qxd4 is likely an innacuracy already. Can you show why it is? I feel like such a beginner (when im not) when i ask these questions, but i am asking out of pure curiosity.
3...nc6 is on auto-pilot.