What to play against this Reti?

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Avatar of DogsofWard
Hi chess folks, I got a surprise in an OTB tournament yesterday and would love some advice. I was black and I was prepared to play the Chigorin against my opponent only this time he played 1 Nf3. I played ..d5 hoping to transpose, he then played ..c4. So maybe wrong but I played Nf6 still thinking of chigorin positions. He played g3 and I played 3..Bg4, 4 Bg2 and Nc6. 5 0-0 e5 6 d4 BxN which took me a long time to work out. 7 exBf3 my next move was a mistake ..Nxd4 but luckily my 1900 rated opponent played 8 Re1 instead of 8 f4 and I eventually won the game. I am a chigorin, and Nimzovich and Scandinavian gambit opposing player but U have never come across this opening and would love some advice. Against the English I usually prefer a reversed Grand Prix attack. Thanks all
Avatar of my137thaccount
WARNALDO wrote:
Hi chess folks, I got a surprise in an OTB tournament yesterday and would love some advice. I was black and I was prepared to play the Chigorin against my opponent only this time he played 1 Nf3. I played ..d5 hoping to transpose, he then played ..c4. So maybe wrong but I played Nf6 still thinking of chigorin positions. He played g3 and I played 3..Bg4, 4 Bg2 and Nc6. 5 0-0 e5 6 d4 BxN which took me a long time to work out. 7 exBf3 my next move was a mistake ..Nxd4 but luckily my 1900 rated opponent played 8 Re1 instead of 8 f4 and I eventually won the game. I am a chigorin, and Nimzovich and Scandinavian gambit opposing player but U have never come across this opening and would love some advice. Against the English I usually prefer a reversed Grand Prix attack. Thanks all

2...Nf6 was definitely wrong. 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 is the way to go if you play both the Chigorin and Nimzowitsch Defense, and 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.c4 e5 3.Nc3 f5 is your reversed Grand Prix

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Avatar of Bishop_g5

The Chigorin has good transpositions with the Queens Gambit accepted. If your opponent doesn't play g3-Bg2 and goes for an early 3.d4 then take on c4 and play next Bg4, the Janowsky variation.

In the line, you played in the tournament after 3.g3 there are many options for Black's. I don't think that suits your style to go for a closed position with a long maneuvering battle. I think the Open Catalan positions is what you are looking for...

I suggest you take on c4 and meet Qa4+ with Nbd7 and a6-b5-Rb8. The idea is to prepare Bb7 and neutralize White's Bg2. There will be a lot of semi-open files to contest and dynamic play for both sides.

 
 

 

Avatar of my137thaccount
Bishop_g5 wrote:

The Chigorin has good transpositions with the Queens Gambit accepted. If your opponent doesn't play g3-Bg2 and goes for an early 3.d4 then take on c4 and play next Bg4, the Janowsky variation.

In the line, you played in the tournament after 3.g3 there are many options for Black's. I don't think that suits your style to go for a closed position with a long maneuvering battle. I think the Open Catalan positions is what you are looking for...

I suggest you take on c4 and meet Qa4+ with Nbd7 and a6-b5-Rb8. The idea is to prepare Bb7 and neutralize White's Bg2. There will be a lot of semi-open files to contest and dynamic play for both sides.

 
 
 

 

@Bishop_g5 your option, while theoretically good, is in my opinion not a practical repertoire choice given what the OP has said he plays. After your suggestion, white has lots of ways to take the game outside his repertoire:

 

Avatar of Bishop_g5

I never said anything about 2...e6. The OP played 1...d5 2...Nf6 and i continued from there. Usually White's play 3.cxd5 either 3.d4 or 3.g3. These are the main continuations.

3.cxd5 Qxd5 it's a Scandinavian and the other options aiming to play a transposition to the Open Catalan is something a Chigorin player can adjust to.

Avatar of my137thaccount
Bishop_g5 wrote:

I never said anything about 2...e6. The OP played 1...d5 2...Nf6 and i continued from there. Usually White's play 3.cxd5 either 3.d4 or 3.g3. These are the main continuations.

3.cxd5 Qxd5 it's a Scandinavian and the other options aiming to play a transposition to the Open Catalan is something a Chigorin player can adjust to.

That's not a Scandinavian, as white is exchanging the c-pawn for the d-pawn not the e-pawn for the d-pawn.

 

Avatar of my137thaccount

@Bishop_g5 I just read a good explanation for why this line is bad - in the standard Scandinavian black wants white to play Nc3 blocking the c-pawn. In this inferior line the c-pawn is already exchanged, so black is losing tempi for nothing.

Avatar of Bishop_g5
my137thaccount wrote:

@Bishop_g5 I just read a good explanation for why this line is bad - in the standard Scandinavian black wants white to play Nc3 blocking the c-pawn. In this inferior line the c-pawn is already exchanged, so black is losing tempi for nothing.

 Right. Now show to us the refutation. Let me remind you that in the QGA and in many lines of the Chigorin White's play with a superior center too. 

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Bishop_g5 wrote:
my137thaccount wrote:

@Bishop_g5 I just read a good explanation for why this line is bad - in the standard Scandinavian black wants white to play Nc3 blocking the c-pawn. In this inferior line the c-pawn is already exchanged, so black is losing tempi for nothing.

 Right. Now show to us the refutation. Let me remind you that in the QGA and in many lines of the Chigorin White's play with a superior center too. 

I'm not claiming that there is a refutation, but I'm claiming that what you suggested is not as good as what I suggested in #2. Moving a piece lots of times is violating opening principles, especially if it's the queen.

Avatar of Bishop_g5

What you suggest in 2# has nothing to do with mine. You propose a different first move when i take from where the OP feels comfortable against 1.Nf3.

The OP didn't mention he likes to play Open games with Black pieces. The problem with the Nimzowitch move order after 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.e4 and Black's has to pick his own way. The OP is a Scandi player so we have to assume that he will play 2...d5 but what if White's tackle's again with 2.g3 and a Reti set up? Does then the 1...Nc6 2...d5 move order fulfill what it promises? or the OP is still confused? when 3.c4 ends up again to Catalan positions?

Time to reevaluate your suggestion.

Avatar of my137thaccount
Bishop_g5 wrote:

What you suggest in 2# has nothing to do with mine. You propose a different first move when i take from where the OP feels comfortable against 1.Nf3.

The OP didn't mention he likes to play Open games with Black pieces. The problem with the Nimzowitch move order after 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.e4 and Black's has to pick his own way. The OP is a Scandi player so we have to assume that he will play 2...d5 but what if White's tackle's again with 2.g3 and a Reti set up? Does then the 1...Nc6 2...d5 move order fulfill what it promises? or the OP is still confused? when 3.c4 ends up again to Catalan positions?

Time to reevaluate your suggestion.

No, the OP said he plays both the Scandinavian and the Nimzowitsch. I'm not sure why, but that's where I'm coming from. (I recommended 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.e4 d6, not 2...e5). By the way, I hope I haven't upset you by my comment? Sorry if I appeared confrontational, I'm meaning this to be a friendly discussion happy.png

Avatar of my137thaccount

In response to your other point, black is playing 2...e5 against 2.g3:

 

Avatar of Bishop_g5

I don't feel i am in a confront. It is a friendly discussion. happy.png Don't worry...

 We have to assume that the OP play's the Nimzowitch to transpose to a Scandi after 2...d5. This is what i feel is consistent with his rest of repertoire. I believe he likes semi-closed positions with chances for an opposite castling.

Avatar of Bishop_g5
my137thaccount wrote:

In response to your other point, black is playing 2...e5 against 2.g3:

 

 

 And after 3.e4 we are in a Glek system. Right!

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Bishop_g5 wrote:
my137thaccount wrote:

In response to your other point, black is playing 2...e5 against 2.g3:

 

 

 And after 3.e4 we are in a Glek system. Right!

Yes, this is a fair point. I now see the benefit of your suggestion, although I'm still not a fan of the pseudo-Scandinavian line. However, the OP didn't seem to mind playing this in his game - I certainly won't play it myself, but I don't have any intentions of playing the Nimzowitsch or the Chigorin either so it doesn't really matter happy.png

Avatar of Bishop_g5

Well...You have someone who plays the Chigorin and looks for transpositions against the Reti 1.Nf3

He likes to play d5 with Black's and that is common both in Chigorin-Scandi and Nimzowitch Scandi. 

 We have to start with that in mind. After 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 the most popular move is 2...c6 but is not consistent with the positions the OP likes to play. After 3.e3 and 4.Nc3 we are in a Reti Slav combat.

My idea was to give him positions he likes to play, even if they are theoretical inferior.

It is not accidentally he played 2...Nf6 against 2.c4. He doesn't look for a safe-solid position.

He wants action. 

Avatar of DogsofWard
Some really good advice guys. I have played the Nimzovich most of my life but the ..e5 variation and I and slowly switching to the Nf6 Scandinavian gambit, especially Smerdon's lines. I am not there yet an d my concern was that after 1Nf3 Nc6 2 e4 I would probably play .. d6 which would have been in known territory but a slog against a much higher rated player. Therefor I aimed to see if I could get a ..Bg4 and Qd7 and ..Bh3 plan option or getting in a Chigorin .. e5 active play especially with 0-0-0 ideas. I have lots of books on these ideas but nothing covers his move order. I could have played safe with ..e6 but I really wanted to take the centre with ..e5. Thanks so much for all of the great replies.