What traspositions should I know when switching to a 3.Nf3 instead of 3.Nc3 move order?

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marqumax

I used to play 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 which allowed the nimzo-Indian but I would like to switch to 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 which would not allow the nimzo but it would allow the queen's Indian defence which I'm going to learn. 

Are there any other traspositions that I should know?

I know there's 3...d5 and 3...c5 but do they have any independent value or are they going to transpose to 3.Nc3 anyway?

slimshady

Ragozin

Nerwal

After 3. Nf3 c5 White is limited in the choice of weapon against the Modern Benoni (some lines with Nge2 or an early f4 like the Taimanov are ruled out)

After 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Black can transpose to many things : Semi-Slav, Ragozin, Semi-Tarrasch which are not really there if White starts with 3. Nc3. For instance there is the mainline 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. e4 Nxc3 7. bxc3 cxd4 8. cxd4 Bb4+ where Black is supposed to be ok nowaydays (the play will simplify and the computers have basically worked out the way to a draw). But after 3. Nc3 Black cannot reach this position at all; 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bg5 c5 is dubious and after 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 c5 White has the important alternatives 7. a3 and 7. Rb1 to avoid the bishop check.

marqumax
Nerwal wrote:

After 3. Nf3 c5 White is limited in the choice of weapon against the Modern Benoni (some lines with Nge2 or an early f4 like the Taimanov are ruled out)

After 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Black can transpose to many things : Semi-Slav, Ragozin, Semi-Tarrasch which are not really there if White starts with 3. Nc3. For instance there is the mainline 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. e4 Nxc3 7. bxc3 cxd4 8. cxd4 Bb4+ where Black is supposed to be ok nowaydays (the play will simplify and the computers have basically worked out the way to a draw). But after 3. Nc3 Black cannot reach this position at all; 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bg5 c5 is dubious and after 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 c5 White has the important alternatives 7. a3 and 7. Rb1 to avoid the bishop check.

Thanks for that information! Very helpful!

punter99

It depends what you played earlier after 3. Nc3 d5 and what you want to play now after 3. Nf3 d5?

king5minblitz119147

i think by far the main reason for choosing 3 nf3 is the catalan setup, while you give up f3 lines or nge2 lines which may be more difficult for black to meet. there is also that chance to play the d5 pawn sac lines vs the queen's indian ala alphazero.

ConfusedGhoul

I hope you know Black can also play Bogo-Indian, Blumenfeld Gambit and other sidelines against 3 Nf3

llama47

3.Nf3 and I play Bb4 anyway (Bogo Indian) so you'll need something against that.

Maybe easiest for you would be 4.Nc3, going back into Nimzo lines.

Stil1

I prefer an early Nf3, rather than an early Nc3. This is good for players who are likely to play Nf3 regardless, and those who rarely play early Ne2, f3, or f4 lines.

Delaying Nc3 allows the additional possibility of Nd2, if the position calls for it.

So delaying Nc3 can be beneficial. Especially if you're facing an opponent who's a diehard Nimzo-Indian player.

You can also delay 2.c4 and play 2.Nf3 instead. Doing so keeps other transposition possibilities for white.

llama47
Stil1 wrote:

So delaying Nc3 can be beneficial. Especially if you're facing an opponent who's a diehard Nimzo-Indian player.

To be fair, Nimzo players are very aware of the fact that white can avoid it. They'll always have something ready for that like the Vienna, semi slav, QID, Bogo, etc.

llama47

Yeah.

ericthatwho

Don't worry about it. Your opponent will know less then you

ThrillerFan
marqumax wrote:

I used to play 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 which allowed the nimzo-Indian but I would like to switch to 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 which would not allow the nimzo but it would allow the queen's Indian defence which I'm going to learn. 

Are there any other traspositions that I should know?

I know there's 3...d5 and 3...c5 but do they have any independent value or are they going to transpose to 3.Nc3 anyway?

 

Don't forget about the Bogo-Indian - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+

adityasaxena4

 

This is one of them!

Aadit111
adityasaxena4 wrote:

 

This is one of them!

You can't transpose into the Chigorin variation after 2.c4