I don't really feel that comfortable while playing against the English.... the long diagonal and the queenside pressure is too much to handle tbh for me .....can anyone show how to play the botvinik against the English?
https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/live/40264765063?tab=review
https://www.chess.com/game/live/40259469995
The move orders I'm talking about are the lines below, although I realize I made a mistake in the move orders above:
1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. c3 Qb6 (better as it makes an immediate threat, now after 6. Qc2 g6, the best continuation for White is a draw by repetition with 7. h3 Bf5 8. dxc5 Qxc5 9. Qb3 Na5 10. Qa4+ Bd7 11. Qc2 Bf5 12. Qa4+ Bd7 13. Qc2 Bf5 14. Qa4+ 1/2 1/2, and after 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qc2 Bf5 8. Qc1 Nh5 Black has a slight edge as White's DSB is trapped, and the open h-file is very little compensation for Black's amazing pawn chain and active bishop pair, especially since White's queen and LSB are both terrible positioned)
1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. c3 Bf5 (hangs a pawn after 6. dxc5 e6 7. b4 Ne4 8. Bg5 g4 9. Bg3 and White's position is rock-solid a pawn up)
Right against early Nf3 order, 5. ...Qb6 is better than 5. ...Bf5.
After 6. Qc2 g6, I don't really see how white's best option is a forced draw though. It seems like there are a lot of other options in this line, for white and for black. For example:
It seems more or less equal.
I believe a move order that's often preferred to Nf3 is Nd2 first. In this line Bf5 first is better:
Please study the QGD (as white & black) extensively as it will be your foundational base against ANYTHING 1. d4 related! Highly recommend! Best wishes ✌🏼
Which QGD line is your preference for black? Ragozin, Tartakower, Orthodox, Lasker, Tarrasch or something else?
I don't play d4 currently. I think I will try it at a later point but I like e4 for now. I quite like the Tarrasch Defence because I play the Panov Attack against the Caro-Kann. I like those types of positions. I've considered picking it up but I already have 2 defences I like against d4, King's Indian and Nimzo, so I'm not too concerned with deviating from those for now. I will probably focus more on King's Indian.
The King's Indian Defense is one of those openings (like the Ruy Lopez) that can result in a wide variety of middle-game positions; everything from tightly closed Full Benoni centers to mobile and dynamic Blitz centers to semi-open or semi-closed maneuvering games.
You and I will never really master the opening... not at our level... but we'll learn a tremendous amount about a broad spectrum of different middle-game positions and plans.
Right against early Nf3 order, 5. ...Qb6 is better than 5. ...Bf5.
After 6. Qc2 g6, I don't really see how white's best option is a forced draw though. It seems like there are a lot of other options in this line, for white and for black. For example:
It seems more or less equal.
I believe a move order that's often preferred to Nf3 is Nd2 first. In this line Bf5 first is better:
I always play Nf3 first, as I usually want to disguise my intent to play London as long as possible, so I can transpose into a more mainline opening if Black plays differently (e.g. 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bg5 Torre).
Against 6. Nbd2, I'd prefer 6... Bg7 as Black. You're right that in this line a trade is better than repeating moves for White, as White is slightly better developed and has a slightly better hold on the center.
Again, Nd2 first just doesn't appeal to me, as it also removes White's ability to play the Jobava London (which I still need to learn if I ever want a d4 repertoire).
I don't really feel that comfortable while playing against the English.... the long diagonal and the queenside pressure is too much to handle tbh for me .....can anyone show how to play the botvinik against the English?
Same. I have a friend who plays it all the time and essentially plays this system against anything under the sun:
The setup isn't so threatening but I find it hard to get an edge against it and it's kind of annoying lol.
This is the Reversed Botvinnik System:
The King's Indian Defense is one of those openings (like the Ruy Lopez) that can result in a wide variety of middle-game positions; everything from tightly closed Full Benoni centers to mobile and dynamic Blitz centers to semi-open or semi-closed maneuvering games.
You and I will never really master the opening... not at our level... but we'll learn a tremendous amount about a broad spectrum of different middle-game positions and plans.
This is one of the things I really like about the King's Indian. It's very flexible and there are a variety of plans against each variation like Benoni, Benko, Panno and Orthodox structures.
Same. I have a friend who plays it all the time and essentially plays this system against anything under the sun:
The setup isn't so threatening but I find it hard to get an edge against it and it's kind of annoying lol.
Looking at White's set-up, it looks strong on d5 and the diagonal, but vulnerable to a f7-f5-f4 break.
Have you tried something like this? :
Looking at White's set-up, it looks strong on d5 and the diagonal, but vulnerable to a f7-f5-f4 break.
Have you tried something like this? :
I've tried some setups with f5 but not this setup specifically. It's probably just a matter of persisting and understanding the line better. The f5 setups certainly seem more dynamic than the botvinnik setup which is fairly rigid.
Thanks, I'll check it out. How would this setup be reached in an annotation?
The database seems to like putting that g8-Knight on f6 instead of e7.
Another possible arrangement of Knights in that line is to play Nf6, Nc6 and then N(c6)-e7 and c7-c6. That brings one more piece over to the K-side before sealing the c6 square with c7-c6.
One reason that I like having a Knight on e7 in this sort of position is to keep the option of playing f7-f5, g6-g5 and N(e7)-g6. That prepares f5-f4 very strongly.
The database seems to like putting that g8-Knight on f6 instead of e7.
Another possible arrangement of Knights in that line is to play Nf6, Nc6 and then N(c6)-e7 and c7-c6. That brings one more piece over to the K-side before sealing the c6 square with c7-c6.
One reason that I like having a Knight on e7 in this sort of position is to keep the option of playing f7-f5, g6-g5 and N(e7)-g6. That prepares f5-f4 very strongly.
Ah yeah, I can see why you like this plan. It resembles the King's Indian quite a lot.
at my level i have no idea still despite being over 2000 OTB as i am bad at the middlegames against d4 in QGD structures, no idea when to play c5 or if i should worry about the minority attack launching in pretty soon on the queenside but have been using nimzo recently