When opponents mirror your opening

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GreenCastleBlock

7...Nc6 not correct, Black wants to trade Qs on e5 not e7.

White will have an extra pawn on e5 with the Queens off, but it is Black's move, and he can immediately attack the pawn which lacks its natural defender, the Nf3.  What do you do? Sell out structurally with f4? Guard it from behind with Bf4? Pin and exchange the knight with Bb5? These approaches all have drawbacks.  White's even tried returning the pawn with Nc3 Nxe5 Bf4 to try to put Black's Qside under pressure, but I have not seen anything even beginning to resemble a refutation.

I'd very much like to be proven wrong on this, but I don't think one exists.  It's unattractive chess, for sure, but White has quite a bit of work to do to get a full point.

ThrillerFan
GreenCastleBlock wrote:

7...Nc6 not correct, Black wants to trade Qs on e5 not e7.

 

White will have an extra pawn on e5 with the Queens off, but it is Black's move, and he can immediately attack the pawn which lacks its natural defender, the Nf3.  What do you do? Sell out structurally with f4? Guard it from behind with Bf4? Pin and exchange the knight with Bb5? These approaches all have drawbacks.  White's even tried returning the pawn with Nc3 Nxe5 Bf4 to try to put Black's Qside under pressure, but I have not seen anything even beginning to resemble a refutation.

I'd very much like to be proven wrong on this, but I don't think one exists.  It's unattractive chess, for sure, but White has quite a bit of work to do to get a full point.

For me that's easy, I would play f4.  This is a case of a long term advantage for White.  White is in no rush to attack.  Keep a firm grip on the extra pawn, and slowly progress thru.

This is different than say, a lead in development, which is short term and demands immediate action, which often results in the necessity of a sacrifice.

There surely is no reason to surrender the Bishop pair (i.e. Bb5 Bd7 Bxc6 Bxc6) in an open position with pawns on both sides.  Trading pieces whenever possible is great for White.  The closer you get to an endgame, the better White gets.  Trading Bishop for Knight is probably the only exception to that.  But otherwise, any other piece trade is great, so if Black played, say, Bb4+, I would answer with Bd2, not c3.

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:

You can't claim to understand an opening and then claim that you are going to lose for playing said opening because it was too sophisticated. If it was too sophisticated then by definition you did not understand. Again, parroting moves is what I am railing against which is what you are describing. Dont stop playing the rook sacrifice, merely stop being lazy and learn how to play the resultant endgames that are common. Its ok if many times you lose from missed tactics because you should always be training tactics but dont dismiss an important aspect of the game because of this, that isn't even a logical connection to make. Many times opening theory can harm your chess growth but only if you are memorising the moves, instead try to apply all of your chess knowledge to figure out why each move is good. And by that i dont mean "oh i play a5 to secure my knight on c5 by preventing b4" but why? Is preventing b4 good even if I decide to move my knight willingly? What ways can my opponent exploit this weakening of my b5 square? is the b5 square even really weak after this move? what plusses and minuses exist for this move 20 moves from now when the pieces are being traded and the endgame is starting? etc etc. If you can satisfactorily answer all of the questions your chess knowledge leads you to ask then you can say that you understand an opening.

No parroting moves is not what we are talking about.  I understand not only the opening and all the moves pertaining to it, why they were played and the rational behind them but also all moves right through the middle game and on into the end game.  What i dont understand is how to make use of the alleged compensation.  That is nothing to do with the opening or the middle game but everything to do with the endgame.  Why you cannot bring yourself to understand this fact I have no idea.

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:
 

Because it isn't a fact. The fact is that chess is a homogenous whole not fractured parts. The fact is that when you played that exchange sacrifice you had no idea what you were doing, just parroting a 2700+ player. The fact is you probably didn't fully understand many of the moves in the opening nor the middlegame because if you fully understood the moves then we could wipe the shirov game from your memory and you would be able to find the moves on your own but the FACT is that you would be unable to do so because you only have the understanding of a C class player, not a 2700+ player. So get your head out of your arse and end the laziness, start questioning everything until you have all of the answers because if you aren't being critical then you are just parroting and thats a fact jack.

I have already told you three times I knew what i was doing in the opening the phase, the phase you claim matters. No one has disputed that chess is a whole but you were slobbering on about opening advantages when i have proven that at my level opening advantages dont mean NADA! and I have the evidence to prove it. I had an opening advantage, i was outplaying my opponent right through the opening and into the middle game.That you refuse to acknowledge it does not diminish what it is and no amount of slobbery drool on your part will change that.  I repeat you can study openings for a thousand years it will not make you a stronger chess player. You will probably never lose any of your games in the opening phase and your time would be much better spent on the middle and endgame.  Please dont offer me any more advice about laziness your position is neither logical, rational nor can it be empirically established.

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:
 

Lmao. ok. Keep thinking you possess understanding that you clearly don't. Let me know how it works out. YOU weren't out playing your opponent, Shirov was. You had no advantage because you didnt understand your advantage but its ok, like I said just keep mistaking your incompetence for competence and let me know how far it gets you.

On the contrary i have studied the game with notes and detailed annotations from the chessbase CD 1d4: A Reliable Repertoire for the Improving Player by John Cox making your somewhat ill conceived assumption that of a drugged balloonist and you still seem unable to come up with any empirical evidence for your now ludicrous stance. . . I wont be telling you how anything works out clearly you are incapable of rational thought, but that's ok many people simply prefer to believe their own propaganda and I expect you are no different.  Man its like trying to reason with a zombie apocalypse all ones gets is copious amounts of slobbery drool.

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:

There is nothing funnier than incompetence parading as competence. 😂

nor a balloon head that is kept aloft by the singular belief in his own propaganda - we are not interested in your opinion, we are interested in evidence, so far you have proffered none.  Here ill post the game for you, ask me about any of the moves in the opening phase and why they were played

 



RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:
robbie_1969 wrote:
 

Exactly like what is coming from you. I watched a dvd on politics the other day so I'm going to be running for president in the upcoming election and I could use your vote. Ridiculous!

It wasn't a DVD, please read the text again and try to understand the import of the words, it reads chessbase CD - that is a CD with detailed annotations - can you tell us how you get from that to watching a DVD and how they are apparently one and the same thing? Now if you cannot get that correct what hope is there for you and here you are pontificating from your room full of mirrors. . . oh dear!

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:

robbie_1969 wrote: hayabusahayate16 wrote: robbie_1969 wrote:  Exactly like what is coming from you. I watched a dvd on politics the other day so I'm going to be running for president in the upcoming election and I could use your vote. Ridiculous!It wasn't a DVD, please read the text again and try to understand the import of the words, it reads chessbase CD - that is a CD with detailed annotations - can you tell us how you get from that to watching a DVD and how they are apparently one and the same thing? Now if you cannot get that correct what hope is there for you and here you are pontificating from your room full of mirrors. . . oh dear! Now that you've been forced to split hairs in order to defend yourself i bid you adieu. Lmao 😂 what does chess have to do with politics? btw did you know a DVD is actually just a CD with more storage capacity? you might know that if you understood a little more than you do.

wow it seems that the wheels have finally fallen from your wagon and it now lies a smouldering wreck upon the forum floor - studying material on a CD is not synonymous with watching a video despite your ludicrous claims (actually you attempt to utilise a false analogy) and no one is claiming that chess is the same as politics my logically challenged friend (another strawman argument) now if you dont mind I have better thing to do than remonstrate with you and point out the inconsistencies with your stance so Ill be on my way - wah! wah! wah!

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:
 

Wow. .. are you one of Jehova's witnesses? Because that would explain a lot.

On the contrary its entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and quite frankly none of your business.

RoobieRoo
hayabusahayate16 wrote:

So you are. Yup, explains a lot.

Is it really the best you can do? Try to find the tone control and turn it all the way up, who knows you may do better?

X_PLAYER_J_X
robbie_1969 wrote:
hayabusahayate16 wrote:

So you are. Yup, explains a lot.

Is it really the best you can do? Try to find the tone control and turn it all the way up, who knows you may do better?

Be gentle with hayabusahayate16. LOL He suffers from a self-imposed Dogma which he created in his own mind.

I have tryed to explain to him that self-imposed Dogmas will stunt his chess growth. He simply does not listen to me. In fact he believes english isn't my first language lol. Which is shown from below.

hayabusahayate16 wrote:

Gata kamsky is not a beginner. I'll just assume english isn't your first language because otherwise your misrepresentation is deliberate and/or you are slightly slow. It isn't the line that is lazy it is the approach. A beginner should stay away from systems. Period.

hayabusahayate16 the word "Lazy" is an adjective.

The Definition = unwilling to work or use energy.

You believe beginners should stay away from systems because it is a lazy approach.

The word "Lazy" is what you are using to describe a series of lines(SYSTEMS). You believe these series of lines(SYSTEMS) are a lazy approach.

Which is a self-imposed Belief/Dogma you have set forth in your mind.

No one esle has said this except you.

Higher level players have said the London System does give equality fairly early yet alot of lines in chess give equality.

So again I say to you I have not misinterpreted anything. Your self-imposed Belief/Dogma is of your own accord and many other players simply do not have to believe that same nonsense.

The London System is very solid. It allows beginners to get a fairly comfortable position. They don't have to worry about alot of opening traps with it. It also helps them learn how to develop pieces very important.

It is a stepping stone in the right direction.