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Which is better: e4 or d4?

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Ethan_Brollier
Lent_Barsen wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:

...
1. g3 is best for players who want simple positional chess to just outplay their opponent in the middlegame and endgame.

I used to rank 1. g3 as part of the Pantheon of top moves, but I have since downgraded it a little in my thinking and now think it's at a level below the top four but above everything else.

The reason? (1) Unlike any of the top four it doesn't do anything to immediately control and/or occupy the center and (2) It's, ironically, a little too committal. It telegraphs you will 100% fianchetto your KB and probably 90% castle kingside.

My top 5 is:

English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5. 
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.

I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.

Lent_Barsen
My top 5 is:

English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5. 
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.

I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.

I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.

Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.

As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.

Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.

Ethan_Brollier
Lent_Barsen wrote:
My top 5 is:

English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5. 
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.

I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.

I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.

Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.

As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.

Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.

Similar to the KID, the KIA setup can’t just be ignored in favor of throwing everything at the kingside, but White can also just decide not to castle kingside depending on Black’s setup. The nice thing about not overextending a pawn center immediately is that you have time in which you can wait and then decide which way to castle. 
I don’t think e4 is better than d4 at establishing a 2-pawn center, as in both, Black’s strongest responses will completely disallow it, but in e4, Black has then fully equalized or has full compensation with counterattacking chances, whereas in d4, White still holds a very slight advantage essentially no matter what Black does. 
And sure, but White can also just choose to play the KIA which is much better than than the Reverse Modern.

sassygirltebritish
Lent_Barsen wrote:
My top 5 is:

English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5. 
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.

I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.

I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.

Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.

As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.

Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.

no not nessarly since black can play e5 and have a nicer position but if you play f4 nf3 first you can get a hungariamn opening

sassygirltebritish
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
Lent_Barsen wrote:
My top 5 is:

English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5. 
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.

I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.

I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.

Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.

As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.

Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.

Similar to the KID, the KIA setup can’t just be ignored in favor of throwing everything at the kingside, but White can also just decide not to castle kingside depending on Black’s setup. The nice thing about not overextending a pawn center immediately is that you have time in which you can wait and then decide which way to castle. 
I don’t think e4 is better than d4 at establishing a 2-pawn center, as in both, Black’s strongest responses will completely disallow it, but in e4, Black has then fully equalized or has full compensation with counterattacking chances, whereas in d4, White still holds a very slight advantage essentially no matter what Black does. 
And sure, but White can also just choose to play the KIA which is much better than than the Reverse Modern.

nah e4 has always been a good weapon against strong opposition