which is HARDER to learn, the Caro kann or the French ?!!?

They are different, not harder.  Both have far fewer lines than the Sicilian or 1...e5.

However, I should forewarn you that just because Black plays the same pawn moves does not make one opening even remotely similar to the other.  The QGD and French are NOTHING alike.

The opening most in similarity to the French is the Kings Indian Defense.  Aggressive Defense, Blocked Center, Attack is on the wings - the direction the pawns point indicate who should be attacking which side (French - W Kside, B Qside, KID - W Qside, B Kside), etc.

The QGD features the Static Center, not the Blocked center.

thx for answering...at this point my question is: what is better to play if i like to play the queen's gambit as white? which opening between the french and the caro kann is more similar to the queen's gambit ?

As already mentioned in post 5, no similarity.  The Caro-Kann doesn't really have a true mate, and the French is most in line with the King's Indian, certain lines of the Old Indian, and the Czech Benoni.

The French is a far more aggressive, and at the same time, far riskier of the two defenses.  The Caro-Kann, the problem is more suffering a slow death where White slowest expands and gains space.  The French is the second most aggressive defense to 1.e4, behind only the Sicilian.

+1 I used to play the French Defense and @ThrillerFan knows what they are talking about.

I've usually thought of the Slav Defense out of 1. d4 to be to closest to the Caro-Kann. More than just the early pawn moves, both are positionally similar when it comes to space and only subtle differences in middlegame maneuvers.

Is the Caro-Kann

https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM7Caro-Kann-excerpt.pdf

perhaps more commonly the choice of lower-rated players?

https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM14-FrenchDefence1–excerpt.pdf

https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM15-FrenchDefence2–excerpt.pdf

https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM16-FrenchDefence3-excerpt.pdf

ThrillerFan ha scritto:
They are different, not harder. Both have far fewer lines than the Sicilian or 1...e5.

However, I should forewarn you that just because Black plays the same pawn moves does not make one opening even remotely similar to the other. The QGD and French are NOTHING alike.
The opening most in similarity to the French is the Kings Indian Defense. Aggressive Defense, Blocked Center, Attack is on the wings - the direction the pawns point indicate who should be attacking which side (French - W Kside, B Qside, KID - W Qside, B Kside), etc.

The QGD features the Static Center, not the Blocked center.
thx for answering...at this point my question is: what is better to play if i like to play the queen's gambit as white? which opening between the french and the caro kann is more similar to the queen's gambit ?

Ricosuavey9

15 hrs ago

#4
I don’t even know how these openings work

TrainerMeow

9 hrs ago

#5
Neither of these are remotely similar to the Queen’s Gambit or QGD.

In the QGD (and most variations of the Queen’s Gambit) both sides try to claim a stake in the center, resulting in early central tension.

In the Caro-Kann and the French, black gives up central control to reach a solid setup. In general black wants to complete development before setting out to undermine white’s center.

If you’re looking for something with similar strategic ideas to the QGD, try 1. e4 e5 or maybe the Modern Philidor (1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5).

ThrillerFan

6 hrs ago

#6
lmMagik wrote:
ThrillerFan ha scritto:
They are different, not harder. Both have far fewer lines than the Sicilian or 1...e5.

However, I should forewarn you that just because Black plays the same pawn moves does not make one opening even remotely similar to the other. The QGD and French are NOTHING alike.
The opening most in similarity to the French is the Kings Indian Defense. Aggressive Defense, Blocked Center, Attack is on the wings - the direction the pawns point indicate who should be attacking which side (French - W Kside, B Qside, KID - W Qside, B Kside), etc.

The QGD features the Static Center, not the Blocked center.
thx for answering...at this point my question is: what is better to play if i like to play the queen's gambit as white? which opening between the french and the caro kann is more similar to the queen's gambit ?

As already mentioned in post 5, no similarity. The Caro-Kann doesn't really have a true mate, and the French is most in line with the King's Indian, certain lines of the Old Indian, and the Czech Benoni.

The French is a far more aggressive, and at the same time, far riskier of the two defenses. The Caro-Kann, the problem is more suffering a slow death where White slowest expands and gains space. The French is the second most aggressive defense to 1.e4, behind only the Sicilian.

KeSetoKaiba

3 hrs ago

#7
ThrillerFan wrote:
They are different, not harder. Both have far fewer lines than the Sicilian or 1...e5.

However, I should forewarn you that just because Black plays the same pawn moves does not make one opening even remotely similar to the other. The QGD and French are NOTHING alike.
The opening most in similarity to the French is the Kings Indian Defense. Aggressive Defense, Blocked Center, Attack is on the wings - the direction the pawns point indicate who should be attacking which side (French - W Kside, B Qside, KID - W Qside, B Kside), etc.

The QGD features the Static Center, not the Blocked center.
+1 I used to play the French Defense and @ThrillerFan knows what they are talking about.

KeSetoKaiba

3 hrs ago

#8
ThrillerFan wrote:
lmMagik wrote:
ThrillerFan ha scritto:
As already mentioned in post 5, no similarity. The Caro-Kann doesn't really have a true mate, and the French is most in line with the King's Indian, certain lines of the Old Indian, and the Czech Benoni.
I've usually thought of the Slav Defense out of 1. d4 to be to closest to the Caro-Kann. More than just the early pawn moves, both are positionally similar when it comes to space and only subtle differences in middlegame maneuvers.

AlanTheron

2 hrs ago

#9
Caro-Kann Defense's Overall record:
White wins 40.3%
Black wins 27.0%
Draws 32.7%
French Defense's Overall record:
White wins 40.9%
Black wins 34.5%
Draws 24.6%
Sicilian Najdorf's Overall record:
White wins 37.2%
Black wins 31.2%
Draws 31.6%
Caro-Kann is simply a bad opening. You'd be better off playing the Sicilian defense or French Defense instead and then get really good at tactics.

kindaspongey

#10
Is the Caro-Kann
https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM7Caro-Kann-excerpt.pdf
perhaps more commonly the choice of lower-rated players?
https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM14-FrenchDefence1–excerpt.pdf
https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM15-FrenchDefence2–excerpt.pdf
https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/GM16-FrenchDefence3-excerpt.pdf

Top

The problem is that the advance has become the main line now-a-days, not 3.Nc3, so I was using that as the basis.  Specifically 3.Nc3 and the Slav have similarities, as do the exchange and exchange QGD (with colors reversed).  However, the advance (now the main line), panov, and fantasy are all their own entity.  An early Nf6 in the fantasy will transpose to the steinitz French each side taking an extra move.  Direct transposition, but what the position normally is after 7 moves will now be the position after 8 moves.

So yes, a single line of the caro is similar to the dxc4 Slav, but not the main line (3.e5)

I have no idea what post 11 is trying to accomplish.

To answer the OP, the answer is neither.  What would I suggest to a White QG player for Black against e4?  Probably 1...e5 and the closed Ruy Lopez (3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3 and Black has options here.

Asking if a QG player should take up the French or Caro-Kann is like asking if someone who is really good at figure skating and ballet should take up Football or Tae Kwan Do.

"... If you choose the Pirc against 1 e4, it makes sense to consider the King's Indian against 1 d4. This is more flexible and will give you additional options later. … Likewise, the Caro-Kann and the Slav fit together, and then you can answer 1 c4 by 1...c6, without having to undertake any additional learning to cope with 2 e4. …" - GM John Nunn (1998)

About three decades ago, GM Soltis wrote a book advocating the Caro-Kann and the Slav. More recently, I have seen the Caro-Kann and the Semi-Slav advocated as a pair.

https://www.chess-stars.com/resources/contents_black_rep_d5c61.pdf

https://www.chess-stars.com/resources/contents_black_repertoire_vol-2.pdf

Somewhere around four decades ago, there were books that advocated the French and the Queen's Gambit Declined.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1005048

Somewhere around 4 decades ago, people used their brains rather than artificial intelligence.  Chess is a different game now.  Far more has been determined compared to 4 decades ago!

People were also more intelligent then than the numbnuts today like Donald Trump and the author of the 15th post of this thread!

hahahaha i loved that example..thx for advices i will learn that !

For sure the French. You need to understand imbalances, the french bishop, and pawn structure when playing the French. Caro kann also requires study don't get me wrong, but it just feels like you can get around with playing the caro kann without understanding as much.

Looking through a few books with French and Caro-Kann sections, I get the feeling that the French section tends to be longer.

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/Understanding_the_Chess_Openings.pdf

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/caro-kann-vs-french-5

Right on

In the French the main problem is that the bishop in c8 is "bad" that's why in the caro-kann opening we play Fc4 and after e6 so both are solid openings but i suggest you the french because it's funnier to play and lead you more exciting games than the caro-kann in my mind.