Which is the best defense against Fried liver attack?

The bust to the Traxler is 5.Bxf7+ (5.Nxf7 is significantly weaker) Ke7 6.Bd5!

So Traxler agressive, while ...d5 and ..Na5 lines are safe?

Ok Traxler has no refutation.

But is it really good at my level?

I have never won a single game against Traxler.

Sorry we are talking about Fried liver attack not Guioco Piano

Qxg2 double attack 0-1. 

7.Bb3 and 7.Bd5 are both (very) good, but the little tried 7.Bc4 may be best- mainly due to a recent TN:

Boom! Black is lost. No games played yet, but all engines agree that Black can pack and go home.

This means Black has to try some line involving ...Qe8 (when the bishop is doing great on c4, sometimes can switch to e2 to break a pin) or 8...d6, but after 9.d3 (and eventually Be3) he just has a pawn less.
Stefan Buecker's 5.d4!? also gives an advantage to white. Other than those few slightly unlucky instances, Black has "full equality", though...

Funnily enough, after d4, it originally says 0.60, but after a few moves gives equality...

...to lose.

Robert, care to say where exactly you have equality after 9.d4?

You have to study Na5 lines. In my rating level a lot of people know that 5.Na5, 6.Bb5+ 6.c6, 7.dxe6 7.bxc6 is good but after that they don't know much. And if you don't know how to continue white has a good position and an extra pawn and blacks position is a mess.

The usual backup for silly, unfounded claims can vary.

- A bullet game against a 1200- player is presented as hard evidence.

- "This is certain. My 2650+ GM trainer told me so". Of course the GM's name is a top secret, unless the GM has died recently.

- "This is so because the earth is yellow. If it was green, then it would be a watermelon". (typical x_player logic).

- "The position is full of hidden dynamism". Of course this should provide ample compensation for being two pieces and one pawn down.

- "Nobody knows how to play that at my level". This, at the very least, proves that the claimer does have a level.

- "Playing the right moves is boring". Apparently dropping wood at random is exciting, though...

But Areg7 broke every previous record:

"My improvement doesn't matter- there is no refutation to it."

OK, let it be so, sir. Your opinion doesn't matter, too: It's of the same quality as your nonexistent proof.

Go veggie.

pfren, dont let him troll you :-) Thx for the Bxf7-c4 hint. 

You mean Robert? I'm afraid this is the only thing he knows.

The Bc4 variation is rather new and not well tested, but you can employ it after some homework.

I'm just a 1700 shitter, so perhaps my opinion isn't worth much, but I think if material-wise you aren't willing to lose at least a pawn then the two-knights defense isn't a good idea, specifically because of 4.Ng5

Even the main line (4...d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3, and then something like 8...Be7), I know people say black has compensation, and I certainly won't pretend to be an expert on this opening, but to me it seems quite dubious for black. Down a whole pawn, stuck with an isolated c-pawn, stuck with a knight on the edge, and furthermore according to the database I'm looking at right now white scores very well in these lines.

However, the Traxler is certainly worth a shot. I'm not even much of a tactical player, but I still love playing the Traxler, it's just so fun. Don't rely too much on computers for this opening because they suffer greatly from the horizon effect in these lines. White's best bet is probably simply 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3, which secures white a small advantage with perfect play, but black still has many tactical and practical chances.

I've spent a lot of time researching and analyzing variations of 5.Nxf7+, and surprisingly white can't hope for very much of an advantage, even with perfect play.

Below is an example of the moves which my engine suggest as white. Initially it gives itself a very strong advantage, but the more deeper into the variation the game goes, the less it appreciates its position.

In this position, even though black has a material deficit, black can eventually give draw by perpetual check.

Of course, I had already analyzed thoroughly these lines before playing the computer so I knew what the "correct" moves were, but the point was to show just how strong the horizon effect is with these lines. And if you bother to really spend the time needed to thoroughly analyze the many variations, you'll find that 5.Nxf7 is simply not that great (despite it being such an obvious and good-looking move).

Not bad. After 8. ... h6 try 9. Nh3 from Steinitz.

Traxler's weak. 4. ... d5 is the best way to hold and/or win.

Is the Fried Liver still used by Masters and above? I was just wondering. I don't hear it talked about much, but maybe it's just discussed by a different name or something. 

You know for what it's worth, you are the only one in this thread so far that has an inking of the status of the Traxler.  There are so many poor claims in this thread without any actual analysis to back themselves.

For the purposes of clarity, here are a few things that our Traxler Analysis group covered:

5.Nxf7 should be labeled either a mistake or dubious for white since black gets a draw in hand attack in all lines.  We have effectively solved that line.

5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8? loses quite terribly to 7.Nc3 to where there are a number of quite dreadful lines for black.  I'm convinced that the old main line with 6...Rf8 is probably completely lost for black.

5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 seems to be the only way to survive for black, but at most all I could find is a little compensation for the pawn.  It's pretty razer sharp with the move orders and tempo saves making a huge difference to the evaluation of many lines.  I do not think that it is refuted, though full compensation is probably not possible.  Beliavsky chose to go down this line with the last few forays into the Traxler at the super GM level.

5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4 is really interesting in that it has little testing so I have some minor theory fleshed out here involving a similar Qe8-Bg4-Qh5-Nd4-Raf8 pressure buildup as against the 6.Bb3 line.  White has the option of a nasty Evan's Gambit like attack in some lines due to the bishop not blocking the b pawn.  I would imagine that it would still have black fighting for equality as usual and would refute any of the old main lines with 6...Rf8.

5.d4 is its own set of problems to where the equalizing line in the books does not actually equalize and the practical way to go is an older frowned upon line.  It's fortunate that players do not go down this route as often as the latter two because I really question black's compensation here.

So all in all, if I were at the professional level, I would steer clear of the Traxler because of how easy it is to draw.  It's probably not a great idea for a class player as you probably will get more long term milage out of learning dynamic play with the Polerio variation.

...the best defense against the fried liver attack?  Tell mommy you'll do dishes for a week if she never cooks it again. And never play chess on Frydays, or it will be the 13th for you!

 The saga of the fried liver... Who will be victorious? All I know is you must put your heart, soul, and kidneys, heck, even a gall bladder into the fight against the attacking fried liver!!!  Ooga-Booga!!

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